FoxtrotDeltaTangoAlways remember, both sides are just as bad!
Diva (she/her)Excuse me for not seeing a credible difference between genocidal warmonger (blue) and genocidal warmonger (red)
InternetCitizen2Excuse me for not seeing a credible difference between genocidal warmonger (blue) and genocidal warmonger (red)
Q. E. D.
Where’s the lie though
I’ve written before on electoralism. There are a few issues with @[email protected] point of view here.
To be clear I am not saying that elections are the only thing that matter or the only thing that we should be doing; just that it is foolish to be ignoring them. Ideally, we should be having our own party, but in places where that is not possible, we should participate in primaries and vote as left as possible. Diva’s dismissiveness here is effectively saying we should step out of the way and let fascists have their way. Harm reduction is still important.
I will also just tag a comment here that voting is still a form of organizing and building credibility. If you have a movement and can persuade its members to vote then said members can also be persuaded to protest or strike. In the west voting carries little personal harm, so if people find that too tall then one can be sure that any higher order resistance might not happen.
At a minimum we should all be voting left in primaries to have statistics that there is in fact a left leaning populace that is being ignored. Protest votes and spoiled ballots are also good moves to do.
Diva is not wrong that the dems are also capitalists, but their apathy is discouraging leftist unity and changes to our material conditions.
Diva’s dismissiveness here is effectively saying we should step out of the way and let fascists have their way.
This is a false binary. I criticize democrat politicians for arming a genocide, that’s me demanding better from them because their actions on that front cost them the election and tens of thousands of people their lives.
Harm reduction is still important
Harm reduction for whom? did it include Palestinians getting bombed with US weapons? any of other victims of US foreign policy? Trump couldn’t operate with impunity as he is if the democrats didn’t set him up for it.
voting is still a form of organizing and building credibility
No it fucking isn’t. Organizing is organizing. Be it building dual power, mutual aid networks, unions, affinity groups, whatever. Voting is the bare minimum civic participation. Conflating them is a diversionary tactic designed to make people think they’ve done something groundbreaking by filling in a ballot.
If you have a movement and can persuade its members to vote then said members can also be persuaded to protest or strike
completely backwards. Movements don’t start with voting and scale up to strikes. they start with material organizing and sometimes engage in electoral politics tactically (ideally with an actual workers party)
At a minimum we should all be voting left in primaries
Funny, did this in the 2024 ‘primaries’ with uncommitted votes; all warning signs were completely ignored. surely if we keep trying the same things will work out eventually.
their apathy is discouraging leftist unity
I’m not apathetic, I’m actually quite involved in irl organizing (actual organizing, not electoral). I’m just not particularly invested in the democratic party.
Harm reduction for whom
For many vulnerable people. Its good that you are unaffected by the election results, but please check your privilege.
Voting is the bare minimum civic participation.
A bare minimum that mls cannot be bothered to do. As such they have no credibility to doing higher level activity.
Funny, did this in the 2024 ‘primaries’ with uncommitt…
Are you aware that there have been elections before that? We should have been organized long before. J Edgar Hoover thanks you for your contributions. You are the leftist he would wish to see. Disorganized and unwilling to take actions.
I’m not apathetic, I’m actually quite involved in irl organizing (actual organizing, not electoral). I’m just not particularly invested in the democratic party.
Right, you cared so much you couldn’t spare an afternoon every two years? Maybe skip the shit posting a few days to get some of the time to do so. Not all of us are so privileged as to not care about the harm reduction at the least.
Its good that you are unaffected by the election results
I’m actually pretty fucking affected by them, I’m a trans woman and plenty fucking familiar with economic precarity. I’ve been having my prescriptions fucked with on and off ever since Trump got in office, my insurance even stopped covering pretty much every formulation of estrogen other than ones used by cis women
You’re lecturing me about privilege because you don’t like how I feel about your preferred party of genocide enablers.
A bare minimum that mls cannot be bothered to do.
I’ve voted in pretty much every fucking election on and off year in my adult life, plus I’m an anarchist.
J Edgar Hoover thanks you for your contributions
It’s rich accusing me of being a fed/useful idiot while identifying voting for the democratic party as the truly useful activity.
You couldn’t spare an afternoon every two years?
Once more, I’ve fucking voted every year for over two decades. I even vote in municipal elections, those happen on odd numbered years.
feel free to continue attacking straw targets though I guess.
It’s rich accusing me of being a fed/useful idiot while identifying voting for the democratic party as the truly useful activity.
Seems you didn’t read my opening statement:
It’s not like you’ve read anything I’ve said. You couldn’t even seem to register that I vote in these fucking elections routinely and still find the democrats disgusting.
I also did read and respond to that, you called me privileged without engaging with anything I said.
and still find the democrats disgusting.
And I never said you were wrong to do so. I am saying your bad attitude around voting is undermining our leftist movements by being needlessly divisive.
personally I find sending unlimited weapons to a genocide to be needlessly divisive.
feel free to continue trying to tone police my ‘bad attitude’ (criticizing democrats)
personally I find sending unlimited weapons to a genocide to be needlessly divisive.
And therefore we should ignore voting even more? The ml position here reads like abstinence; which is effectively to give up.
feel free to continue trying to tone police my ‘bad attitude’ (criticizing democrats)
Talk about a strawman. Like I said earlier. It would be ideal for us to have our own party. It would be great if mls like you would join us in support of it. Until then the progressive wing of US politics lives in the dem party and it would be helpful to our movement to help it grow as much as it can.
And since you care so much about strawmanning; don’t forget I did say voting is only one thing we should do. Not the only thing ;)
And therefore we should ignore voting even more? The ml position here reads like abstinence; which is effectively to give up.
Hey, I’m an anarchist, at least pretend you’re reading anything I’m saying. I vote plenty, you can’t seem to register that though because you’re stuck fighting ghosts.
It would be great if mls like you would join us in support of it. Until then the progressive wing of US politics lives in the dem party and it would be helpful to our movement to help it grow as much as it can.
“We should have our own party BUT actually let’s just be dem progressives forever”
Also I’m an anarchist, once more you seem incapable of processing anything I say.
And since you care so much about strawmanning; don’t forget I did say voting is only one thing we should do. Not the only thing ;)
You spend an entire thread accusing me of not voting and undermining leftism by criticizing dems and are now pretending that voting isn’t all you are advocating for? Talking out both sides of your mouth
Hey, I’m an anarchist, at least pretend you’re reading anything I’m saying. I vote plenty, you can’t seem to register that though because you’re stuck fighting ghosts.
And I am still asking you to make common cause with us to vote for short term goals. Do you want to quote were I said you should not want to ultimatly destroy the government?
“We should have our own party BUT actually let’s just be dem progressives forever”
Given how much push back I am getting from a fellow lefty like yourself to vote left we are going to be stuck as progressive dem for some time. Thanks for your contribution here.
now pretending that voting isn’t all you are advocating for?
I’ll refer you to my opening comment Ms. Strawman.
Given how much push back I am getting from a fellow lefty like yourself to vote left we are going to be stuck as progressive dem for some time.
Is your position that the reason we don’t have a workers party because people like me (marginalized trans anarchists) criticize the democrats online?
I vote plenty, democrats have won my state in presidential elections for my entire voting lifetime. You’re the one saying ‘someday we’ll have our own party’ as cover for demanding democratic party loyalty right now. You’re not building anything, you’re just defending existing power structures and blaming critics.
I vote plenty
That is great, and it would be helpful to us both if you also didn’t have an infectious attitude about elections that discourages others to show up. Its fine if you do not want to run or help in a campaign, but it would be helpful if you spoke to and helped fellow lefties show up to primaries and vote as left as possible.
If you still really hate it show up and spoil your ballot at a minimum. Elections are still a show of numbers and credibility. A revolutionary group that cannot commit to such a low stakes action is not credible for higher level organization and resistance.
I wasn’t aware I was infectious, you’re making me sound like I’m an influencer or like operating the yuri mind control machine. I’m just a girl on the internet.
Your position still sounds like you’re tone policing criticism of the genocidal warmongers who got us into this mess.
you’re making me sound like I’m an influencer
Everyone is to some degree. Leadership by example is powerful and the actions are you communicating is that you are not going to get everything so you are not going to even try. It creates a nagative feedback loop. Diva won’t vote as there is no leftist party. There is no leftist party because Diva won’t show for it. At scale this means we as a group are missing out on more organization and influence.
To be fair to you the communication is leadership by example is often unintentional. You may not have the intention to create this feedback loop or other influences, but that does not mean you are not doing so. This is true for everyone.
For someone who deeply cares about ending genocide you put too much effort into talking about why you won’t take a small action that could help. Would you roll a dice to stop it if the probability was 1:100 of stopping it? Note that not rolling also means a continue. Your attitude is that you would rather just let it continue. I suppose it is easy to have a purity test when you are not cold and hungry in a siege. In that sense you are not checking your privilege with your lack of urgency. And this is only one topic on the ballot.
are you incapable of registering that I do vote? How do you keep failing to read that across at this point a half dozen posts.
You are not actually engaging with anything I’m saying and just rattling off bullshit. pretty normal behavior from you lot, sadly.
are you incapable of registering that I do vote?
so why do you keep acting like I don’t then? You aren’t even internally consistent in that post, you say that it’s great that I vote, but then act like I don’t again in the second paragraph
But Putin attacking countries is fiiiiine. Ukraine and Western propaganda and all that.
firstly isn’t that whataboutism?
either way I’m opposed to inter-capitalist wars and despots like Putin.
In a discussion about the misrepresentation of political stances to further various agendas, it is not a whataboutism to point out a commonly held political hypocrisy.
I mean it is a misrepresentation of my political stance, plus the topic was warmongers running our government and they were like ‘what about russia’
If your primary concern had been its misrepresentation of your values, why didn’t you lead with that? The topic of .ml and hexbear was brought up as examples of people pushing the narrative in OP - hence why including a hypocrisy about the topic common in those communities is relevant.
A pretty common sentiment on hexbear is that Putin is someone Lenin would have shot. Opposing the war in ukraine as an inter-capitalist war is pretty common position as well. I don’t see the hypocrisy, just looks like someone attacking a made-up position
You, a .ml user, very literally express the sentiment in the OP in your first comment - you equate (red) and (blue) as warmongers you fail to see the difference between.
That the communities are far more pro-Russian than other spaces online is trivially easy to confirm - not perhaps to the flippant degree bassomitron presented, but it’s still true. And while you yourself may not be an example of that (although your primary stance appears to be that both Ukraine and Russia are equally wrong due to it being an inter-capitalist war and not a war of aggression by one capitalist state, which hmm. You also appear to have at one point earnestly believed the lies that there are “nazi gangs” running around Ukraine, which is not your fault but I hope you have reevaluated that belief since then), that’s not relevant to the above generalization.
(edit: clarity)
You also appear to have at one point earnestly believed the lies that there are “nazi gangs” running around Ukraine
There are and were plenty of nazi gangs running around. they’ve just been largely integrated into the military formations, idk what to tell you. Believe it or not both sides can have their issues. This isn’t a Marvel movie.
your primary stance appears to be that both Ukraine and Russia are equally wrong due to it being an inter-capitalist war and not a war of aggression by one capitalist state, which hmm.
Both sides are capitalist states fighting over spheres of influence and neither represents working class interests.
So you’ve got nothing, got it.
Even with the addition from your edit, I see very little I need to further contribute here. You have served as a perfect illustration of my point. Thank you.
There’s a delightful irony in you attempting to bait this further using a meme depicting something that never actually happened in the anime. Well done, you’ve made a game attempt, better luck next time, similarly dismissively pompus statements, etc. etc.
depicting something that never actually happened in the anime.
It’s a great depiction of what you’ve been up to right now though
similarly dismissively pompus statements
wow it’s just like all your other comments!
You really want this to become a fight on personal terms, and I’m just not here for that. Resorting to image macro trolling in an attempt to bait out a personal attack so you do not have to address the arguments themselves is a really poor look for your case.
You were the one who didn’t actually address anything and are just like “it is proven, my job here is done”
What exactly is the point you feel that you’ve made?
My points stand quite well on their own, and my previous comments quite eloquently address that question. If you are uncertain, I invite you to go and review them. I still feel there is no need to contribute further to what is a well-settled topic.
I went back and couldn’t find anything eloquent with your name attached to it, just a pile of smug bullshit as usual
You’ve been condescending to me from the start. don’t start acting offended when you get attitude back.
That which was to be demonstrated once again.
Fr, and lemmy is broadly left leaning to
Teddy PoliceAs an unconcerned bystander I do wonder what you would have to contribute, as it seems you’re mostly trying to hate on users from a few particular instances, without any real substance to it. And it does look like you think you had a real “gotcha!” moment there. Instead you’re just looking like someone with an axe to grind taking it out on random folks.
And that’s fine! My intial point was that their accusation of something being a whattaboutism was incorrect - everything else was in response to their attempt to insert themselves as a directly aggrieved party when the discussion was about a group in general, never about them specifically.
I don’t know that it’s particularly unconcerned to insert yourself into this too, but as the bar has been repeatedly set at “insulting me, lying about a lack of understanding in (what I can assume was) an attempt to discredit my argument, demonstrating that lie and then immediately attempting to walk it back when confronted about it” I am genuinely grateful for a polite interlude in the conversation.
And that’s fine!
It’s fine that you’re looking like someone who is out to harass others?
I asked for the contribution you would have made, according to yourself. What was the contribution?
DarkFutureExcuse me for not seeing a credible difference between genocidal warmonger (blue) and genocidal warmonger (red)
You’re not excused until you learn to post comments that aren’t mind numbingly stupid.