58008I've had enough shimmying along ledges and squeezing through cracks sideways to last me a lifetime
Zahille7
ampersandrewWalking sideways through a bookcase, crack in the wall, crevasse, is often to mask a load screen, as you suspect. I forget who coined it, but someone online observed that these are literally “load-bearing walls”, and I’ve been calling them that ever since. In the case of Assassin’s Creed, there used to be sort of a puzzle of “how do I get from here to there with only those observable handholds?” Perhaps that eroded over time as the series went on. The last one I finished was Unity, and I sampled Odyssey, but that wasn’t a very vertical climbing game. Assassin’s Creed came from Prince of Persia and Splinter Cell roots, one of which retains that traversal puzzle, and the other is a stealth game, where you have to get from one place to other either without touching the ground or without being in the light. I would argue Hitman’s ledge-climbing fits the same bill that stealth games always have, so it’s not out of place there. I can’t speak to Sekiro or Jedi.
Besides masking loading, I think these are put in to break the pace in games. If all you’re doing is going from one fight to the next, your mind is a bit too locked in. Climbing is less effort on your mind, without making you pay attention to story.
I also found in games like Expedition 33, they help make the world feel more alive if you’re clambering through low caverns and climbing up cliffs. The way the verticality lends to better vistas is itself pretty valuable.
Unless it’s a vent and I have a crowbar though, that’s still great.
arctanthropewhat pissed me off about Jedi fallen order was when they would put in an elevator to hide a loading screen, and then when you got to the end it would still stutter for a couple seconds to finish loading. don’t make the elevator a real fixed distance dumbass, just make it a looping animation that continues arbitrarily until the loading is completely done
Fuck, even fallout 4 got that right lol
I mean, it’s a AAA game. I’m sure that was the plan, and then it was lost in the eternal crunch to meet the launch date.
There’s a reason AAA games all have that same shitty stank, and it’s not because the companies making them don’t have access to talented people.
It depends on how it’s done, and what’s important to the game, if you can do this. If you can see outside the elevator, it obviously has to be really moving a fixed distance. Also, if you’re supposed to know the height you moved it needs to be fixed, so the experience conveys that. The key is to just make it as long as, or longer, than your longest expected load time, or make the door stay closed until it’s done.
For an example, Dark Souls 1 has to have fixed length elevators. The length is totally tied to the physical world. If it changed length to suit loading times, it’d throw off your sense of where you are. Dark Souls 2, many of the elevators are just trying to convey a sense of traveling, not a specific amount of it. The world is abstract, and the transitions are more about a feeling than the actual physical scale. (These two use the exact same system though obviously, but it’s a good example of different goals.)
I see your squeezing through cracks and raise a long press a button to do an action. Jesus, if the action needs a certain amount of time to complete, and 99% of times it doesn’t, just make a freaking animation while at it instead of making me press a damn button for 2 seconds.
It can be overused, but that one’s useful for avoiding a thousand different “are you sure?” prompts.
iamthetotI was always under the impression that these were here specifically because loading screens broke immersion and were just as disruptive. And honestly I prefer it over a loading screen myself. God of War 2018 was one continuous camera shot with fade-to-white only when fast-travelling, it was immersive as fuck. And that was only possible because it wasn’t chucking a loading screen in my face every time an area loaded.
If they’re only there to bloat playtime they can get fucked, for sure, but I am a sucker for immersion.
I was always under the impression that these were here specifically because loading screens broke immersion and were just as disruptive.
This is especially infuriating when you’re playing on a PS5 where there shouldn’t be a need for a loading screen but the game is cross platform and they need to design them into the levels because PC and PS4 need them.
tb_The God of War reboot released on the PS4, where it also “didn’t need” loading screens.
The PS5 does still need some time to load anything, it’s not magic. You can expand a PS5 with M.2 NVMe storage, which is also used in many PCs.
The benefits of the PS5/NVMe storage are greatly reduced loading times and faster data streaming (which enables, for example, the ability to move faster through a higher fidelity NYC in Spiderman without buildings visibly popping in).
The PS5 does still need some time to load anything, it’s not magic.
It’s not magic, it’s engineering. Games specifically designed for the PS5 can pretty much load instantly. It’s not just the SSDs raw bandwidth. The SSD controller plays a huge role. It can decompress data as it’s loading from the SSD, effectively acting as a bandwidth multiplier. It also communicates directly with the GPU cache.
Remember that PCs are held back by their modular architecture. To allow for an interchangeable GPU it needs to be on a PCIe card with its own separate VRAM. This all comes at a huge performance penalty. Data needs to be copied over the slow PCIe bus to the VRAM before it can be accessed by the GPU. On a PS5 with its unified memory architecture everything is immediately usable once it hits the system RAM. This is a massive advantage when streaming assets.
The big difference is latency. Not how much data it can load per second, but the time between starting a load and the data actually being available. Sony spent a lot of effort in getting this as short as possible throwing a lot of purpose-designed hardware at it. Something you can’t do in a PC because it’s a general purpose machine.
Another huge factor is that every PS5 has the same minimum performance level. The fact that you have a super fast SSD is meaningless because the game has to be designed to work with the crappiest spinning rust HDD that meets the minimum system requirements. So while a PS5 may not be as fast as the best PC that can run the game, it is much faster than the crappiest PC that can run the game, so the developers can optimize for a much faster machine than they can when they have to take into account that crappy low-end PC that has to be able to run it.
Why would you think that a PC would need a loading screen when a PS5 doesn’t…?
See my other post. A PC is a general purpose machine designed to be modular, this comes at a pretty significant cost in performance. Everything in technology is a trade-off, nothing comes for free.
A PS5 may use the same x86 architecture but the system architecture is not the same as a generic PC. It’s not that a PS5 punches above its weight, it’s actually the other way around: PC’s perform relatively poorly considering their specs. For example: the ability to replace the GPU comes at a massive cost in performance. PCs make up for this somewhat with sheer brute force. A purpose-built machine will always be more efficient.
lol I don’t know if this is supposed to be a bit or not.
The user is correct in that the modularity of a home PC is not the most efficient way for the electronics to communicate, and therefore some performance is lost.
I would also point out that while a PS5 has known, defined specs that a developer can plan for, a PC could be pretty much any specs. And while yes the dev can state a minimum spec requirement, but if they are launching on PC they are going to want to target a wide audience.
You do realise the PS5 is just a computer chip right you can get the same graphics card that’s in the PS5 (don’t because you can get better ones now). I know all the marketing was about how amazing it was but honestly much of that came from the fact that it was finally using an SSD rather than their stupid old HDDs which were obsolete even for the PS4
This is something i like about No Mans Sky. The loading screens are masked as light-speed jumps and it works really well. I wish they had like 2 or 3 other animations sequences though.
It’s also what elite dangerous does when travelling between star systems. If you actually fly over to a system (it takes forever but there are a few star systems that are close enough to each other that you can actually legitimately do that within a couple of hours) it doesn’t work because you skipped the loading zone. You just end up in empty space where they should be a star. But if you then jump to it, suddenly there’s a star even though your coordinates are exactly the same.
Yeah I mean does anyone really want every game to become fallout? It is unbelievably irritating having to redo a level that has like six loading zones within 2 minutes.
Tbf, a lot of games with loading screens aren’t as bad as Fallout and co.
Bethesda is just inept.
Fallout 4’s loading speed is tied to the framerate. You can download a mod that uncaps the framerate during loading screens and they’re over in 1-2 seconds.
It’s sad how much money that company and its developers make off of shitty products. Just goes to show you don’t need to be competent to appease the average consumer.
I like them. Even if it doesn’t hide a loading screen in a specific instance, as others have pointed out, it breaks up the pace. It’s never very long and usually it makes me focus on some art, animation or music that I hadn’t noticed or was taking for granted. It usually lasts a very small amount of time. I think our attention spans have just shrunk so much.
talOne thing that annoys me about loading animations designed to conceal the game needing to load is that there’s no guarantee that — especially with PC games, as the game is played on faster computers — the bottleneck may become the animation completing rather than the actual loading.
Static loading screens don’t have this problem.
I kind of like Fallout 4’s approach of putting a single model up that you can rotate and look at while something is loading. It’ll add to the loading time a bit, but at least there’s something the player can fiddle with for a few seconds.
🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮 Ridge Racer back in the day had you play Galaga while it loaded. Namco patented it tho, so nobody else ever did it. (the patent has since lapsed, but it’s still not being done by anyone :()
BurgerBaronFinal Fantasy 7R was so egregious with the shimmying loading screens but I blame Sony for using a 5400RPM shitty hard drive in the PS4.
I haven’t played it, but if you can’t skip the animation, that actually highlights the issue I complained about in another comment, where the animation becomes the bottleneck. Say they do this, and it’s tuned to that hard drive. Then someone decides that they’re willing to spend more to improve performance and goes out and gets an SSD for their PS4. Now the game probably doesn’t need to spend all that time hiding the loading, but the player’s still stuck with it in the game.
Absolutely. One reason why I love playing old ass games is that they practically don’t have load times anymore.
FF7R will stay very annoying to play even twenty years down the line, because the animations take a fixed amount of time, while a loading screen only takes the amount it needs.
tuckermMy theory is that today’s load times are the Xbox 360 era of graphics. Wait let me explain.
When the 360/PS3 came out, graphics were suddenly really good. But the industry didn’t just want really good graphics, they wanted cinematic photorealism right now and the 360/PS3 weren’t good enough for that.
So, we got many games in that generation full of brown filters, blurring, lens flares, and bloom effects in order to hide the fact that games still had visible polygons. They looked worse for it.
Today, load times are pretty small. But the industry wants load times to be non-existent right now, so they’re using all of these scripted sequences to hide it. I suspect that, in hindsight, people will say that a lot of games from this generation had poor level design because of it. I definitely think that a lot of 360 games look bad because of their “cinematic” visual effects.
Captain AggravatedThe earliest game I remember hiding loading screens was Wind Waker on the Gamecube. It’s the entire reason the game was set on an ocean, they could load and unload assets between islands while the player is in control sailing.
But have you had your fill of shimmying on a ledge, and then a rock slips and you need to frantically press X?
Regrettable_incidentI’m a couple of hours into the last of us 2, and I have already edged through a bunch of cracks. And done the ledge thing too. I don’t hate it.
How did Sekiro get roped into this? I mean, sure it has ledge shimmying; but it’s pretty much optional, except in the tutorial where it’s needed to reach the kid the first time and then at the big snake for like a second before getting into the sedan.
surely there are better solutions to that non-issue. Like a loading screen.
You would rather see a loading screen every 40ft than have them hide asset streaming?
Yes it’s overused, but that just means they need to get a bit more clever with their slow-downs. I would take them over a loading screen any day.
There’s a video on YouTube showing a breakdown of the level streaming in The new resident evil game and it’s clever because it’s just hidden by doors and corners.
I think games use a lot more level streaming the people realise and yeah it absolutely doesn’t need to be a narrow passageway.
One problem I have with this trend is that squeezing through a gap or running down a artificially long corridor will always take the same amount of time.
A loading screen only takes as long as it needs, meaning that the gameplay interruption shortens with better / newer hardware.
One amazing thing about playing 20-30 year old games is that they have practically no load times anymore. Squeezefests like the FF7 Remake will always stay a slog, even when your fridge can run it in 20 years.
Good point about hardware upgrades, though it doesn’t work for consoles where the hardware will never change.
It’s a difficult problem because it spans multiple domains: part of it is gameplay mechanics (players often get power ups that make them move faster, which could make the same corridor take 10s or 2s), part of it is level design (the layout of the building in the story is compact, but two adjacent rooms both need a lot of content or have complex set pieces), and part of it is artists intention (they want you to feel claustrophobic or like your character is taking an unintended route, which an arbitrarily long hallway wouldn’t convey).
Something related that games used to do (more than they do now) that no one ever complained about were points of no return. Your character would drop down a ledge that they couldn’t climb back up, or they’d walk into a room and the door behind them would lock or debris would fall and block the path. This served a similar purpose: to bar the player from backtracking so they could unload unused assets. I guess it was just a more subtle method of misdirection, people never complained. The sideways slow shimmy is just so in-your-face without anything else to misdirect that it’s become a meme.
Consoles tend to be backwards compatible to an extend and often even come with an inbuilt emulator for older games. You can play the first Zelda on the Switch.
Bloodborne had load times up to a minute on vanilla PS4, around 25 sec on PS4 Pro and around 15 sec on PS5.
Imagine they had you squeeze through a gap for 60 seconds to hide that load. Even a 30 second squeeze would have handicapped both Pro and PS5.
Hah well luckily I’ve never seen anything close to a 60 gap squeeze. But if the game is half decent, then there is story being conveyed during that time, not just the shimmy. TLOU has a few sections where you’re squeezing through a cramped wall that most certainly hides loading, but at the same time your character is hiding from an enemy, or some emotion other than bordom is trying to be conveyed.
Obviously I’m not arguing in favor of slow shimmies, I just think the better, well funded devs with the resources often come up with much more immersive excuses for hiding the loading. So at the end of the day, we’re just asking the overworked, under funded, possibly less skilled devs, who are often already crunching for a due date, to also think about how their game will run on hypothetical bandwidths of future hypothetical hardware. That’d be nice, but if they had that time, then they’d just spend it making the experience less boring on current hardware.
whotookkarlTime to barrel, sewer counter, squeeze score, etc
The first Jak & Daxter has no loading screens. If the player for whatever reason is going too fast for the game to keep up, Jak will slip and fall which is way more immersive. It also never happens unless you’re trying to make it happen, like in a speedrun.
LinkenTIL! I’m sure I saw it but never questioned it back in the day, just speaks to the immersion. Video for those interested!