Mastodawn

I wrote the following post a couple of days ago while I was crossing China by train.

I did not dare to send it while staying in China considering the oppressive surveillance dictatorship there.

Now that I left China a couple of days ago, I can finally share my anger about our perception of Chinese railways - and I'm happy to announce a talk on the topic of human rights violation in railway industries and how we're all fooled by Chinese propaganda about their trains and railways on the next opportunity on a Chaos event.

I can't believe how Europe, Australia and pretty much everywhere else people believe the propaganda about China's supposedly amazing railway network and rolling stock industry, shared all over the place by the dictatorship's business initiatives.

It hurts my soul to defend Alstom, Siemens or Stadler but if you every looked closer to a CRRC train, you will soon understand how European rolling stock is decades ahead of what China builds.

Let me explain and start with the economics.

- Westbahn ordered 15 Stadler KISS trains for 300 mio EUR (20 mio per trainset)
- Westbahn leased four CRRC DDMU02 trains for 70 mio EUR for a period of 10 years including maintenance (18 mio EUR per trainset)

- Leo Express ordered five Stadler FLIRT trains for 60 mio EUR (12 mio per trainset)
- Leo Express ordered 30 CRRC Sirius trains for 200 mio EUR (7 mio per trainset)

We keep hearing how European manufacturers cannot compete with Chinese prices. Yes, the trains are cheap and the overall offers good - but there is definitely no unreasonable price gap. And all that despite CRRC as a state-owned enterprise profiting from any kind of financial and political support, humans rights violating exploitation in the employees and large scale forced labor in the supply chain.

But if we compare the prices, it's not such a huge difference. The key factor is rather the delivery time : As a Chinese state company, the priority is always supplying foreign offers first in hope to permanently establish a supply chain. Therefore, CRRC can immediately start building newly ordered trains - a lure offer to establish China on international markets.

So far the business side.

Let's talk about the rolling stock itself.

As a brief history, CRRC was established from the so-called "Harmony" (Hexie) initiative of China's dictatorship regime. Hexie refers to the first generation of Chinese high-speed trains built by European and Japanese companies locally in China using technology-transfer. This way, CRRC got all the knowledge from Alstom, Bombardier, Kawasaki and Siemens to develop their own future trains.

Chinese trains are incredibly fast and amazing press pictures, mock-ups and even prototypes carrying the narrative of comfortable, modern and affordable trains dominate the western view on Chinese railways. These narratives are repeated, prayed over and over with no evidence.

Yes, trains are fast. That's it. CRRC has combined and improved the foreign technology to operate at higher speeds of 350 - 400 kph. The rest of it is propaganda. The trains technology is not advanced. The trains are bumpy, unoptimized and shaky - even on the most modern tracks at medium speed. The hardware is unreliable, everything is optimized on low cost, neither on safety nor on quality and sustainability.

Despite that, railways are incredibly expensive in China. They are configured in budget airline style with the cheapest interior possible in 1st and 2nd class. The exception is the business class (surprise : That's what the propaganda machine feeds to the international news). While we believe the song of affordable railways accessible to everyone, tickets here are at the same price and often more expensive than on the flagship high-speed networks in Europe - absolutely unaffordable for the average Chinese citizen who's not living a privileged higher class life.

I don't know why we all believe this, but seeing western companies falling into the trap of CRRC's lure offers for cheap trains is entirely incomprehensive to me. Chinese rolling stock is not the long awaited new wind for modern and affordable railways but a pitfall into the scrapyard of deprecated, crappy and unthoughtfully built rolling stock covered by a beautiful mask and pipe dreams.

Crappy trains sold at over expensive prices despite the dictatorship's government subsidies, cruel exploitation of the workers and forced labor in the supply chains.

China is not just a business partner with another culture. It's a cruel dictatorship putting all effort in propaganda, business and dependency of the western world.

If we're serious about railways, about liberty and human rights, we buy rolling stock in democratic countries with worker's rights, independent human rights organizations and real innovation in building trains.

China is not an alternative source of rolling stock but a cruel dictatorship eliminating its own population in concentration camps and supporting slavery through forced labor to reach its economic power.

All information in this post was researched at best effort. I'm not a train manufacturer not an economist or human-rights expert. I'm just an individual concerned about what's happening. Especially the human-rights situation in China is hard to proof due to the absolute surveillance and repression against anyone speaking up.

Cynically, I wrote this post while traveling aboard of a CR400AF-Z train in China.

#China #CRRC #Railways #Souvereignity #HumanRights

Edit : Corrected price of Leo Express order, thanks to @bovine3dom bringing this up.

If people look for documentation about forced labor at CRRC, here's a quick nitpick :

- https://etiskhandel.se/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Train-tram-full-report_ETI-Sweden.pdf
- https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale/

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Jon Worth 6d ago

@lewd 2/2 And then seeing what China is doing in the Balkans... it makes me immediately nervous.

BUT I need to be careful here. Not because I fear something, but simply because I do not know the Chinese side of this anything like well enough. And I need to stick to commenting on what I know.

@jon Yes, I agree. But I as a private individual grassroot railway activist have some more flexibility in what I say - and at least I quite know about what I say when talking about Asian railways. So maybe my talk might be interesting for you as well ?

(Don't get me wrong, I just think as a public figure you must act much more accountably than me.)

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Tom Tom 6d ago

@jon @lewd what is china doing in the Balkans ?

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Jon Worth 6d ago

@tomtom @lewd https://jonworth.eu/chinese-investment-in-european-railways/

Chinese investment in European railways

In the Newsletter this week Free to read: How to fix railway ticketing in the EU Analysis: Chinese investment in European railways Bullshit Meter this week: Loop line connecting British and Irish cities Good week: A future for the Una line? Bad week: Bane NOR seems to have caused its

Jon Worth

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Tom Tom 6d ago

@jon @lewd that's very interesting. It resonates with this article in Le monde today (sorry only in french)
https://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2026/03/22/le-premier-ministre-belge-appelle-l-europe-a-repliquer-a-la-chine-qui-devaste-notre-economie_6673783_3234.html

Le premier ministre belge appelle l’Europe à répliquer à la Chine « qui dévaste notre économie »

Dans un courrier envoyé à la Commission européenne, Bart De Wever demande un renforcement des moyens d’enquête sur les pratiques commerciales de la Chine et une action concertée des Etats membres afin d’éviter des accords bilatéraux fragmentés.

Le Monde

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Suzanne ‘bionic’ Veerman 6d ago

@lewd thank you for writing this down. Many details of the same debate I’m currently seeing with electric city/regional buses. Two Chinese manufacturers are rapidly gaining market share in the Netherlands by delivering reasonable good products in time, meanwhile Dutch producers are experiencing issues with getting the production upright again after the global logistics disruptions and other European manufacturers, especially German brands, have lost much of their market share compared to the combustion era.

From a consumer view point, the U-series from Yutong are some of the best buses I’ve ever experienced in the Netherlands. But we actually have no clue about any long time experiences (the oldest Yutong bus in the Netherlands is only 15 months old, and there are already over 250 in service and more on order) and what the Chinese are logging about these buses and what will happen if the relation with China turns sour. And it’s the same for BYD, although they very quickly gained a bad reputation after being involved in a fraud case and having long lasting quality issues in older series.

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LEdoian 6d ago

@lewd Well, there probably is a reason Leo Express did not want them in the end. I didn't ride a Sirius yet, though, nor have I read any particularly bad reviews (nor good ones, either) – I think it is kinda known here they are not quality built and have a bit silly interior layout. And they serve a regional line now, so having a low floor was an improvement from the traditional coaches.

From what I see around myself, the reaction is mostly “huh, a cheap trainset” without any blown up expectations. Which is probably fair, businesswise.

The #HumanRights issue is a valid one, yes. And after the remote kill switches have been found in Norwegian #Yutong buses, I think more imports from #China are going to undergo some longer checks, which may (hopefully) be prohibitive for buying new trains from there. (Across Czechia there are several tenders for new trainsets that are expected to be certified by years 2029-2033 (writing from memory, might be off), which is not that long given how much time it took to certify Siriuses…)

Also, I am not aware about any upcoming contracts with #CRRC nor them competing in the recent tenders, but that might just not be publicly known.

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Maltimore 6d ago

@lewd while I'm all for not buying into the China hype, I did take a train there from Beijing to Shanghai in 2012 (!) and it was absolutely amazing?! Didn't feel bumpy at all. I'm sure things must've improved since.
That being said, another train I took Shanghai-Hong Kong was not that great.

@maltimore Hmmm, to what do you compare ? Beijing - Shanghai is the absolute flagship line. How does it compare to the KRM line in Germany or the LGV Est-Europeenne in France ? But to be honest, I would not agree it's amazing. It's just okay.

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allen 6d ago

@lewd I've heard a lot of stuff, both good and bad out of China and their railways. Though a common refrain is that the highspeed stock is not too comfortable, I'll reserve my judgement on the ride and service quality until I try them out myself, probably in a couple years.

On the North America side of things, sometimes it's a case of "buy replacement infrastructure from China or wait several more years for your domestic or closer suppliers to clear their backlog, with prices likely to rise".

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allen 6d ago

@lewd
British Columbia's Chinese electric ferry order is a case in point. https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2025/06/10/bc-ferries-picks-chinese-shipyard-to-build-four-new-major-vessels/

BC Ferries picks Chinese shipyard to build four new major vessels

BC Ferries has selected China Merchants Industry (CMI) Weihai to build its next generation of hybrid-electric passenger ferries.

CityNews Vancouver

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Mx Rey (Fuck ICE) 💜 🏳️‍⚧️6d ago

@allen @lewd we ended up with CRRC trains for the Orange and Red Lines in Boston, replacing 40- and 55-year-old rolling stock respectively.

the shells and probably most of the parts are manufactured in China, satisfying the "lowest bidder" constraint, then final assembly etc happens in a bespoke factory in Massachusetts, satisfying the "must create local jobs" constraint.

CRRC simply undercut every other manufacturer in the bidding process and agreed to the local jobs condition, and then it turns out that everything is extremely behind schedule, over budget, and also has kinda uncomfortable seats

we've had multiple production stalls due to customs clearance issues... most recent one lasted about a year and was due to inadequate forced labor disclosure paperwork, resulting in the layoff of most of the Massachusetts workers, but this has recently been resolved.

(I'm not sure what resolved it, but it feels like the kind of corrupt government impasse that is soothed with a modest amount of cash. such is life with That Fucking Guy etc)

I do not expect these trains to survive more than 20 years

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zivi 6d ago

@lewd (when ppl say “it’s just another culture” that icks me so hard. is “another culture” really an excuse for concentration camps and forced labor and everything in between. thats not fucking culture. yet so many people fall into this hole of defending fascism as if it’s all just “cultural differences” we’re supposed to respect)

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zivi 6d ago

@lewd

Crappy trains sold at over expensive prices despite the dictatorship’s government subsidies

this is a good early sign that just as any totalitarian regime, the one in PRC is self-destructive and unsustainable. technology falling behind as those who would push to advance it are bullied abroad or shoved into concentration camps, and those who remain cannot work optimally under the terror. even with subsidies, the industry cannot keep up, and their public image is largely backed by disinformation, not reality

that state is already rotting from the inside and it’s only a matter of time before everything starts falling apart for them

@zaire I mean, the obvious proof how it's not "just another culture" is how the same ethnic group of Han people escaped from the mainland regime to Taiwan forming a free, democratic society. Apparently the same people actually *do* value freedom and human rights.

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Sam 6d ago

@lewd having been to china a few times and ridden the trains a fair bit this is far from my experience. All the high speed trains I rode there were smoother than those in Europe and comfortable in second class. I don't know how the ticket prices compare to wages there but I would make the same complaint about prices here.

If you have any links I would be interested to read more into the forced labour and concentration camps in Chinese railways.

- https://etiskhandel.se/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Train-tram-full-report_ETI-Sweden.pdf
- https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale/

It's pretty decently documented.

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Inga stands with 🇺🇦 🇵🇸5d ago

@lewd I understand the rest but not really this specifically:

> Despite that, railways are incredibly expensive in China. They are configured in budget airline style with the cheapest interior possible in 1st and 2nd class. The exception is the business class (surprise : That's what the propaganda machine feeds to the international news). While we believe the song of affordable railways accessible to everyone, tickets here are at the same price and often more expensive than on the flagship high-speed networks in Europe - absolutely unaffordable for the average Chinese citizen who's not living a privileged higher class life.

Their 2nd class seems to be quite comparable to 2nd class in ICE (yes it's 2+3, but they also have a larger loading gauge = wider bodies), definitely not worse than some of the absolutely cramped TGVs I've been in.

But especially the ticket prices, last time I've checked they didn't have dynamic pricing and cost like around 5-6 euro per 100 track-km (in 2nd class), which is something you can only get on high-speed rail in Europe in domestic journeys on super saver fare purchased well in advance?
And longer-distance journeys (like 2k km) in Europe are not only incredibly expensive but also incredibly poor. For example, Beijing to Guangzhou (which is not "the absolute flagship line") is roughly the same distance as Warsaw to Barcelona or Berlin to Madrid, but Beijing to Guangzhou is ~130 euro in 2nd class, taking less than 8 hours, without interchanges. While trying to get from Warsaw to Barcelona or from Berlin to Madrid without Interrail is the world of pain and easily over 200 euro even when bought half a year in advance, and even with interrail, with all the supplements, it's going to be around 400 euro for round-trip, take over 24 hours with a bunch of changes, where even one train delay will mean 30+ hours for the complete journey (plus having to spend a night somewhere).
So I just don't see how is it "often more expensive than on the flagship high-speed networks in Europe"?
And technology might be not advanced, but connections are. Sure, EU could have used the same technology it has now to provide decent longer-distance connections, but the fact is that it doesn't and China does?

And sure, KRM or LGV Est-Europeenne could be good, but also they're small (and expensive).
You can get from Cologne to Frankfurt (170km of track) in just a bit under one hour, for like 60-80 euro when bought for tomorrow, 30-40 when bought in advance, 20 being the absolute lowest price. While there is a bunch of trains e.g. from Wuhan to Changsha (350km of track) taking 1:11, with tickets available (from what I understand) for tomorrow for 30 euro.
Or you can get from Strasbourg to Paris (~450km of track?) in ~1:40, but for tomorrow it costs 75-125 euro, and typically it's only under 50 euro on ouigo trains (and even then it's still around 25 euro when bought way in advance), and I find it difficult to believe that "cheapest interior possible in 2nd class" in China can somehow be worse than "cheapest interior possible in 2nd class" on ouigo?

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Inga stands with 🇺🇦 🇵🇸4d ago

@lewd case in point: I live in Berlin and last week I learned that in a week I'd need to be in Valencia.
Flights were almost sold out for some reason, and the remaining ones were like 350 euro one way, with Ryanair.
Buying regular train tickets on such a short notice would be like 500 euro one way (in 2nd class of course), with zero passenger rights, and most likely also involving an overnight stay in e.g. Lyon (for extra cost of course), and take like 36+ hours if I don't want to risk not getting to my destination 12 hours late because of some delay. With 20 hours of these 36+ spent in trains.
Interrail would fare a bit better, at "just" ~400 euro (plus overnight stays) for round-trip (which would mean that I also have to take a similar excruciating train journey on the way back, instead of buying a more reasonable flight ticket).
So in the end, after some research, I found relatively cheap flights from Poznan, and I'm going to take an evening train to Poznan, spend the evening and half of the night there, and then second half of the night in Poznan airport to catch a very early morning flight. Total price: ~120 EUR per person, one way; total duration of journey: 16 hours, including sleepless night. And I was only able to plan it because I'm an experienced traveler; I don't think regular people start with "you're in Berlin, with decent rail in Germany and nearby countries (those closest to Berlin), so just look at all airports within 500km distance and see which of them have cheap flights to Valencia".

Were EU rail network more like China's, and were EU ticket prices more like China's, I'd simply buy a ticket for the same ~120 EUR on a direct train taking like 8 hours. And surely even the most awful 2nd class train seat for 8 hours cannot be worse than the options I actually have in EU; and this price level is actually the cheapest way I can get from origin to destination in EU even with crappy multi-modal journeys.
(Meanwhile, non-high-speed train in China on the same route would take ~20 hours (vs. 20 hours in EU on mostly high-speed trains, not counting the interchange or overnight stay time); and would cost like 40 EUR in an (I assume awful) seat or like 60 EUR in an (I assume awful, but still) couchette.)

Maybe things would feel differently for me if I already had a valid continuous interrail pass for 1st class. But I don't, so I personally experience how tickets on the flagship high-speed networks in EU are nowhere close to being at the same price and often cheaper than in China; nor do they provide anywhere near the same level of comfort.

But I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, maybe my information on the prices and schedules in China is actually wrong, or maybe there actually are ways to occasionally travel in Europe on very long distances for cheap.