"Not all men," he casually argues, tossing a chocolate into his mouth.

She doesn't blink. Instead, her fingers curl around the box of chocolates between them, and she smiles. "Okay. But if I take this box of chocolates, poison one in front of you, shake the box, and offer you one", she raises an eyebrow, "would you take it?"

The chocolate in his mouth suddenly feels too thick, too sweet. A disbelieving laugh escapes him. "Good lord, you are crazy."

"Oh no no, I'm not crazy," she says trying to fight the smirk at his reaction. "I'm just working with the numbers. When one in four is poisoned, you check every piece."

l excerpts from a novel I will never write

~~~ thenevernovel, Instagram

I am pinning this to my profile. Whenever someone says "not all men", feel free to point them to this post.
@ics "Not all men" only works as an argument if "those men" are actively combating the patriarchy. Just "not participating" means standing by as injustice and harm continue. Most of the time, almost all of the time, "not all men" is just a petty excuse to do nothing and to dodge criticism instead of joining the fight. That's why the patriarchy is still there.

@celeste_42bit "not all men" doesn't work as an argument at all - until that day when women, walking through a park in the night, feel as comfortable as men.

Period.

@ics I was suggesting that patriarchy wouldn't exist any longer, and women would feel safe if all of "those men" would be actively fighting it. It's not happening tho. They're just letting it continue to wreak havoc.
@ics This is the best thing I've read on this here internet.
@ics fucking fantastic
Succinct and precise

„Nicht alle Männer“, argumentiert er beiläufig und wirft sich eine Praline in den Mund.

Sie zuckt nicht mit der Wimper. Stattdessen umschließt sie mit den Fingern die Pralinenschachtel zwischen ihnen beiden und lächelt. „Okay. Aber wenn ich diese Pralinenschachtel nehme, eine Praline vor deinen Augen vergifte, die Schachtel schüttele und dir eine anbiete“, sie zieht eine Augenbraue hoch, „würdest du sie nehmen?“

Die Schokolade in seinem Mund erscheint ihm plötzlich zu dick, zu süß. Ein ungläubiges Lachen entfährt ihm. „Meine Güte, du bist doch verrückt.“

„Oh nein, nein, ich bin nicht verrückt“, sagt sie und versucht, ein Grinsen über seine Reaktion zu unterdrücken. „Ich schaue mir nur die Zahlen an. Wenn eine von vier vergiftet ist, überprüft man jede einzelne.“

~~~~ Auszüge aus einem Roman, den ich niemals schreiben werde

Adam, "bütün erkekler öyle değildir,” diye rahatça karşı çıkıyor ve ağzına bir çikolata atıyor.

Kadın gözünü bile kırpmıyor. Bunun yerine, aralarındaki çikolata kutusunu parmaklarıyla kavrıyor ve gülümsüyor. “Tamam, ama ben bu çikolata kutusunu alıp, senin önünde bir tanesini zehirlesem, kutuyu sarstıktan sonra sana bir tane versem”, kaşlarını kaldırıyor, “alır mıydın?”

Adamın ağzındaki çikolata birden çok ağır, çok fazla tatlı geliyor. İnanamayan bir kahkaha kaçıyor ağzından. “Tanrım, sen delisin” diyor.

“Hayır hayır, deli değilim” diyor kadın, onun tepkisine karşı gülümsemeyi zor tutarak. “Sadece rakamlarla oynuyorum. Dört taneden biri zehirliyse, tabiiki her parçayı kontrol edersin.”

~~~~ asla yazmayacağım bir romandan

@ics As I have no interest whatsoever in any human being except my wife for company, I'll say OK. Assume that I'm basically Trump, if that provides you with a way to live your best life, which I wholeheartedly want you to do.

But how can we motivate men to better themselves if the explicit policy is that it will make no difference whatsoever for them and they'll stay enemies of womankind either way?

@zappes @ics I don't think that's one of the goals.

@zappes I ... don't understand what you are trying to say.

In fact, being a kind and decent person, and being a feminist, helps men a lot - maybe even more than it helps women.

The patriarchy is not a boon for men; it helps a few men to grab power and hold on to it. But it is actually the hell that all men live in.

Patriarchy, misogyny are really bad for women, but they are equally horrible for men - especially because most men are duped to believe that it is in their own interest, which it absolutely isn't.

@ics I fully agree with that, really. And I do what I can to be a decent person because I think that‘s valuable in an of itself.

I‘m just frustrated by the fact that this whole thing smells like the Middle East. Very few bad people manage to make very many normal people suffer, and the surrounding rhetoric makes reconciliation look less likely with every day that passes. It makes me sad.

@zappes @ics
That isn't the policy, explicit or implicit, so back up one. To claim they are enemies (or even seen to be so) is a truly unwarranted exaggeration.

Women have cause to not trust men by default, which is different from distrusting men by default (and some women have cause for that posture).

@ics
Shame, that was shaping up as a good tale!
@bytebro 😂 ❤️
@ics @bytebro reminds me of a novel about poisonned chocolate being publicly used, it was in this book but I don't know which of the stories...
https://www.babelio.com/livres/Penzler-Vengeances-mortelles/170573
Vengeances mortelles - Otto Penzler - Babelio

Critiques, citations, extraits de Vengeances mortelles de Otto Penzler. Le principe des anthologies d'Otto Penzler est appétissant : il choisi...

Babelio
@ics
This bigoted logic works with any group of people be it ethnic, religious, sexual, gender, wtv

"Not all ███," he casually argues, tossing a chocolate into his mouth.

She doesn't blink. Instead, her fingers curl around the box of chocolates between them, and she smiles. "Okay. But if I take this box of chocolates, poison one in front of you, shake the box, and offer you one", she raises an eyebrow, "would you take it?"

The chocolate in his mouth suddenly feels too thick, too sweet. A disbelieving laugh escapes him. "Good lord, you are crazy."

"Oh no no, I'm not crazy," she says trying to fight the smirk at his reaction. "I'm just working with the numbers. When one in four is poisoned, you check every piece."

Holy shit, @ics, this logic sounds like something coming right outta TSA's training material to justify racial profiling.

@cnx As with (nearly*) any tool, you can use it prepare an awesome dinner or to kill people - it is what you do with it that counts.

*: "nearly", because there is no other use for a handgun or machine gun or anything like other than to kill someone

No, @ics, I meant the discrimination against black people or muslims is based on the same logic: some suicide bombers are muslims, so all muslims must be more carefully screened than other groups, or how african american are more likely to be pulled over.

@cnx Well, I don't think that's that.

I think, discrimination against black people or muslims is because of pure, simple, old-fashioned racism - it has nothing to do with some of them being bad - or how would you explain the NON-discrimination against white people who commit vastly more horrible crimes?

@cnx But I can see how the above argument would be used by those racist, yes.

@ics, in the US, convicted crimes are proportionally more likely to be committed by people with than without african descent. My point is, however, the proportion of criminal, regardless of one's ethnicity, is marginal in the overall population, so being more cautious with someone just because that person is black is, be definition, racist.

Discrimination against one's social identity based on a correlation of a bad trait with the identity's minority is morally wrong IMHO no matter how you try to spin it. We are all imperfect, and it's fine to have unkind thoughts from times to times; I just don't think it's very nice to glorify them.

Table 43

FBI

@cnx Ah, I see where you are coming from and where you are going.

There is a German saying: "Reisende soll man nicht aufhalten!" - have a nice day

@ics @cnx i would explain it by the fact that "crime" is just whatwver the state says it is instead of "harm" which applies to everyone (including those doing it in the name of "stopping crimes") and the state doesn't care if rich white guys do it because their 'allowed too' ..
@Li @[email protected] This is called racism

@ics that is a major part of why; but its also inheriently how the system works (cops are allowed to do horrible shit to people whenever they want, as are courts, and prisons, etc... )

anyway .. i dont think saying discrimination is a "tool" and 'can be good sometimes' is the right move; even if 'not all men' is often bullshit said to just dismiss shit? ..

(i honestly feel like "this thing can also be used for good sometimes" is often used to dismiss shit in a very similar way, honestly)

@Li I have no idea what you're talking about.

@cnx @ics

That isn’t a valid comparison. It’s not a tiny minority of men who create a dangerous environment for women/girls/femmes and men are not an overpoliced & marginalised minority.

I’ve been sexually assaulted by four different men (2 of whom were social acquaintances), groped by scores if not hundreds more (it was basically a weekly occurrence in my late teens/early 20s). The verbal assaults/threats are countless. And my experience is at the milder end for women

@cnx @ics Those men faced no consequences because they’re part of the dominant group, not the oppressed. Other men did/said nothing or even made excuses for them & blamed me, it’s baked in to our society.

It’s not comparable to the demonisation of marginalised groups. The whole “but what if i said that about x marginalised group” is an argument that assumes everyone starts in a equal position, that misogynistic, racist, queerphobic, ableist power structures don’t exist

@ics I've seen a similar idea in a tweet
> TV ldea: #NotAllSnakes
> Men who say "Not All Men" are introduced to a variety of snakes. Not all of them are
venomous.
@ics I'm a male feminist, I'm not offended and I'd never use the phrase "not all men", but I think the story sounds clichéd (Donald Trump Jr. already compared refugees to poisoned Skittles in 2016).

@ics I get what this is saying but tbh ... I've heard this argument used to justify racism against Arabs and immigrants way to often for me to be comfortable with it.

The reality is that the actual answer i.e. systematic issues cause tends in behaviour that wouldn't be there othewise, is too nuanced for most conversations ... at least from my experience

@engravecavedave We had this discussion before - in this thread!

This is a friggin' analogy and as such, it is a tool like any other. Nobody will stop using knives for cooking just because there are people who kill others with it.

Please go away with that argument!

@ics fair enough. I didn't see the other comments so I apologise
@engravecavedave @ics You probably had the bigot making them blocked. You have put it reasonably enough, unlike him.

@ics This reminds me of the “not all snakes” analogy, which I quite like:

“Not all men…”
Not all snakes are venomous, but would you pick one up that you weren’t sure about?

@whybird Yep! I saw that one somewhere too and really liked it.
@ics I get it that you will probably never write that novel, but maybe you could write it as a short story. Because I would buy that short story. And I'm an old ornery man that is so white and privileged that I glow in the dark. And I still get it.