"Not all men," he casually argues, tossing a chocolate into his mouth.

She doesn't blink. Instead, her fingers curl around the box of chocolates between them, and she smiles. "Okay. But if I take this box of chocolates, poison one in front of you, shake the box, and offer you one", she raises an eyebrow, "would you take it?"

The chocolate in his mouth suddenly feels too thick, too sweet. A disbelieving laugh escapes him. "Good lord, you are crazy."

"Oh no no, I'm not crazy," she says trying to fight the smirk at his reaction. "I'm just working with the numbers. When one in four is poisoned, you check every piece."

l excerpts from a novel I will never write

~~~ thenevernovel, Instagram

I am pinning this to my profile. Whenever someone says "not all men", feel free to point them to this post.
@ics "Not all men" only works as an argument if "those men" are actively combating the patriarchy. Just "not participating" means standing by as injustice and harm continue. Most of the time, almost all of the time, "not all men" is just a petty excuse to do nothing and to dodge criticism instead of joining the fight. That's why the patriarchy is still there.

@celeste_42bit "not all men" doesn't work as an argument at all - until that day when women, walking through a park in the night, feel as comfortable as men.

Period.

@ics I was suggesting that patriarchy wouldn't exist any longer, and women would feel safe if all of "those men" would be actively fighting it. It's not happening tho. They're just letting it continue to wreak havoc.
@ics I like the poisoned chocolate ๐Ÿซ comparison.
@celeste_42bit tbh, this is the best example and explanation of the issue I have seen so far.
@ics @celeste_42bit Except that one in a four might be a little too low...

@PierreM Yep, unfortunately in some places it is 1 in two or even more... ๐Ÿ˜ž

@celeste_42bit

@ics @PierreM Right? It really depends on where you're going.
I'm so fortunate to have moved to a university city in which having pride pins and feminist patches is part of the "good tone".
Going back to my parents' place sometimes, it really shocks me how many men make misogynistic remarks on the daily, and even some women display obvious signs of internalized misogyny ("we all know us women do x and y" etc.).
And it's even worse to see that no one steps in. And when I do it myself, no one supports me, or I'm being stared at weirdly, as in "why are you starting trouble on purpose" ๐Ÿ™„๐Ÿ˜ฌ

Since I live in Tรผbingen, I wonder how I never really noticed this too much while I was living with my parents... looking at it from the outside tho makes me wanna ๐Ÿคฎ

PS: The place where my parents live has around 25% AfD (German fascist party) voters and most of the rest is some form of conservative - obviously

@celeste_42bit A woman told me this story about a larger group of friends (15-20 people) who regularly met and went for dinner together, mostly men, but also a few women.

One of the men always made some misogynistic jokes and the other men didn't say anything for some time.

Then, two of the men stood up and said if this doesn't stop, they're gonna leave the group. It didn't stop ("come on, he is just joking"). The two men left. The women left. And now the group is being dissolved as such because that asshole wouldn't stop ("But I am just joking").

And yes, the women there did complain about it before the two men started complaining, but nothing changed until those two men just left the group - as they said they would if the misogynistic jokes don't stop.

Learnings for me was:

  • It doesn't work if the women complain
  • It only needs one or two men to bring a big change in a large group
  • And that change is lasting
  • And for background: those two men are just the most cis het men I know. It has nothing to do with your gender or sexuality, it has everything to do with being a decent and kind human being.

    @PierreM

    @ics @PierreM Usually, only the privileged can fight the system of the privileged.

    So instead of "not all men," we should say "yes, all men" because we need all men to solve the problems we have with the patriarchy... ๐Ÿค”

    โ€žNicht alle Mรคnnerโ€œ, argumentiert er beilรคufig und wirft sich eine Praline in den Mund.

    Sie zuckt nicht mit der Wimper. Stattdessen umschlieรŸt sie mit den Fingern die Pralinenschachtel zwischen ihnen beiden und lรคchelt. โ€žOkay. Aber wenn ich diese Pralinenschachtel nehme, eine Praline vor deinen Augen vergifte, die Schachtel schรผttele und dir eine anbieteโ€œ, sie zieht eine Augenbraue hoch, โ€žwรผrdest du sie nehmen?โ€œ

    Die Schokolade in seinem Mund erscheint ihm plรถtzlich zu dick, zu sรผรŸ. Ein unglรคubiges Lachen entfรคhrt ihm. โ€žMeine Gรผte, du bist doch verrรผckt.โ€œ

    โ€žOh nein, nein, ich bin nicht verrรผcktโ€œ, sagt sie und versucht, ein Grinsen รผber seine Reaktion zu unterdrรผcken. โ€žIch schaue mir nur die Zahlen an. Wenn eine von vier vergiftet ist, รผberprรผft man jede einzelne.โ€œ

    ~~~~ Auszรผge aus einem Roman, den ich niemals schreiben werde

    Adam, "bรผtรผn erkekler รถyle deฤŸildir,โ€ diye rahatรงa karลŸฤฑ รงฤฑkฤฑyor ve aฤŸzฤฑna bir รงikolata atฤฑyor.

    Kadฤฑn gรถzรผnรผ bile kฤฑrpmฤฑyor. Bunun yerine, aralarฤฑndaki รงikolata kutusunu parmaklarฤฑyla kavrฤฑyor ve gรผlรผmsรผyor. โ€œTamam, ama ben bu รงikolata kutusunu alฤฑp, senin รถnรผnde bir tanesini zehirlesem, kutuyu sarstฤฑktan sonra sana bir tane versemโ€, kaลŸlarฤฑnฤฑ kaldฤฑrฤฑyor, โ€œalฤฑr mฤฑydฤฑn?โ€

    Adamฤฑn aฤŸzฤฑndaki รงikolata birden รงok aฤŸฤฑr, รงok fazla tatlฤฑ geliyor. ฤฐnanamayan bir kahkaha kaรงฤฑyor aฤŸzฤฑndan. โ€œTanrฤฑm, sen delisinโ€ diyor.

    โ€œHayฤฑr hayฤฑr, deli deฤŸilimโ€ diyor kadฤฑn, onun tepkisine karลŸฤฑ gรผlรผmsemeyi zor tutarak. โ€œSadece rakamlarla oynuyorum. Dรถrt taneden biri zehirliyse, tabiiki her parรงayฤฑ kontrol edersin.โ€

    ~~~~ asla yazmayacaฤŸฤฑm bir romandan

    @ics As I have no interest whatsoever in any human being except my wife for company, I'll say OK. Assume that I'm basically Trump, if that provides you with a way to live your best life, which I wholeheartedly want you to do.

    But how can we motivate men to better themselves if the explicit policy is that it will make no difference whatsoever for them and they'll stay enemies of womankind either way?

    @zappes @ics I don't think that's one of the goals.

    @zappes I ... don't understand what you are trying to say.

    In fact, being a kind and decent person, and being a feminist, helps men a lot - maybe even more than it helps women.

    The patriarchy is not a boon for men; it helps a few men to grab power and hold on to it. But it is actually the hell that all men live in.

    Patriarchy, misogyny are really bad for women, but they are equally horrible for men - especially because most men are duped to believe that it is in their own interest, which it absolutely isn't.

    @ics I fully agree with that, really. And I do what I can to be a decent person because I think thatโ€˜s valuable in an of itself.

    Iโ€˜m just frustrated by the fact that this whole thing smells like the Middle East. Very few bad people manage to make very many normal people suffer, and the surrounding rhetoric makes reconciliation look less likely with every day that passes. It makes me sad.

    @zappes @ics
    That isn't the policy, explicit or implicit, so back up one. To claim they are enemies (or even seen to be so) is a truly unwarranted exaggeration.

    Women have cause to not trust men by default, which is different from distrusting men by default (and some women have cause for that posture).

    @ics
    Shame, that was shaping up as a good tale!
    @bytebro ๐Ÿ˜‚ โค๏ธ
    @ics @bytebro reminds me of a novel about poisonned chocolate being publicly used, it was in this book but I don't know which of the stories...
    https://www.babelio.com/livres/Penzler-Vengeances-mortelles/170573
    Vengeances mortelles - Otto Penzler - Babelio

    Critiques, citations, extraits de Vengeances mortelles de Otto Penzler. Le principe des anthologies d'Otto Penzler est appรฉtissant : il choisi...

    Babelio
    @ics
    This bigoted logic works with any group of people be it ethnic, religious, sexual, gender, wtv
    @ics
    that's a good one

    "Not all โ–ˆโ–ˆโ–ˆ," he casually argues, tossing a chocolate into his mouth.

    She doesn't blink. Instead, her fingers curl around the box of chocolates between them, and she smiles. "Okay. But if I take this box of chocolates, poison one in front of you, shake the box, and offer you one", she raises an eyebrow, "would you take it?"

    The chocolate in his mouth suddenly feels too thick, too sweet. A disbelieving laugh escapes him. "Good lord, you are crazy."

    "Oh no no, I'm not crazy," she says trying to fight the smirk at his reaction. "I'm just working with the numbers. When one in four is poisoned, you check every piece."

    Holy shit, @ics, this logic sounds like something coming right outta TSA's training material to justify racial profiling.

    @cnx As with (nearly*) any tool, you can use it prepare an awesome dinner or to kill people - it is what you do with it that counts.

    *: "nearly", because there is no other use for a handgun or machine gun or anything like other than to kill someone

    No, @ics, I meant the discrimination against black people or muslims is based on the same logic: some suicide bombers are muslims, so all muslims must be more carefully screened than other groups, or how african american are more likely to be pulled over.

    @cnx Well, I don't think that's that.

    I think, discrimination against black people or muslims is because of pure, simple, old-fashioned racism - it has nothing to do with some of them being bad - or how would you explain the NON-discrimination against white people who commit vastly more horrible crimes?

    @cnx But I can see how the above argument would be used by those racist, yes.

    @ics, in the US, convicted crimes are proportionally more likely to be committed by people with than without african descent. My point is, however, the proportion of criminal, regardless of one's ethnicity, is marginal in the overall population, so being more cautious with someone just because that person is black is, be definition, racist.

    Discrimination against one's social identity based on a correlation of a bad trait with the identity's minority is morally wrong IMHO no matter how you try to spin it. We are all imperfect, and it's fine to have unkind thoughts from times to times; I just don't think it's very nice to glorify them.

    Table 43

    FBI

    @cnx Ah, I see where you are coming from and where you are going.

    There is a German saying: "Reisende soll man nicht aufhalten!" - have a nice day