VollaficationistFeb 25

RE: https://mastodon.social/@fsfe/116131145887510612

@volla has initiated the industry consortium #UnifiedAttestation for an open-source alternative to Google Play Integrity. That will be a game-changer. All major European OS producers are joining. We have a golden opportunity now to boot out Google.

Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago

@vollaficationist @volla Unified Attestation is the direct opposite of keeping Android open. It's an anti-competitive centralized system putting Volla and other companies selling devices working with them in control of which devices and operating systems people are allowed to use. It's the direct opposite of open. There's nothing neutral or fair about companies approving using their products while disallowing others. Unified Attestation needs to be stopped.

https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116239523775374959

Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS Which companies are "disallowed" to partake in #UnifiedAttestation? You have formally and informally been cordially invited. As are any and all other OS manufacturers. Please, let's ease the tone. What about a constructive talk? I believe we should support one another wherever possible and meaningful. Considering the vast market potential, we have all much to gain. Some will choose GOS, some VOS, etc. It's a big cake. Let's ditch Google - unified. Good day!
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist Unified Attestation includes multiple companies hostile towards GrapheneOS. They've spent years misleading people about GrapheneOS and making attacks on our team. Unified Attestation gives them veto power over app compatibility on GrapheneOS. It puts them in a position where they can harm GrapheneOS with unreasonable requirements and disingenuous concerns to reduce app compatibility. It's also clearly an illegal anti-competitive cartel and participating wouldn't be legal.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist Unified Attestation is nothing more than an anti-competitive power grab via a centralized service sitting on top of Android hardware attestation. There has yet to be any valid explanation for why this has been created. It would be entirely possible to have neutral organizations certifying devices and publishing those certificates as signed data usable with Android hardware attestation. There's no valid reason to have a centralized service under the control of these companies.
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS This is currently being discussed. Nothing is written in stone. One way is to have an independent third-party highly renowned institution do test and certification. Please consider that UA is still very much "under construction." Please also note that we respect GOS' work, which is why we reached out to you half a year ago.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist GrapheneOS won't participate in any system which requires us to delay our releases while waiting for certification. That's inherently anti-security and is completely unacceptable. We also won't give any companies or organizations veto power over app compatibility on GrapheneOS. It's a horrible idea and we're not going to let it happen. We won't participate and we'll file a lawsuit over the fact GrapheneOS is being banned by companies selling products threatened by GrapheneOS.
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS Will you really? And you didn't Google? Now I'm actually really getting worried about the status of GOS. Well, I wish you the best.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist Yes, we'll file a lawsuit against each company involved in Unified Attestation for the damages done by their anti-competitive cartel to GrapheneOS. It's likely not only going to be us filing this lawsuit. We can work with many other stakeholders interested in stopping creeping authoritarianism in Europe eroding people's right to use whatever hardware and software they want to use. You're working alongside politicians pushing expanded Chat Control. This is perfect for them.
Show threadGuillaume5d ago
@GrapheneOS @vollaficationist Funny how you don't answer on the Google-part. Why don't you attack them since they control the whole Android ecosystem, making it a mess to anyone to do things different and are pushing to close it even more. Last time you replied you just said Google has more money for lawyers...
Ashish Panigrahi5d ago
Show threadGrapheneOS
@guilg @vollaficationist We've been actively fighting against the Play Integrity API for years. We were making substantial progress in both Europe and India. We've also been coordinating with multiple other companies towards filing a lawsuit against Google. Unified Attestation is an enormous gift to Google helping to legitimize what they're doing with the Play Integrity API. Volla is playing into the hands of authoritarians who want systems disallowing people using arbitrary hardware/software.
Mar 18 at 4:15pmWeb
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS @guilg So, years with no fruit.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist @guilg Substantial progress has been made with regulators. Separately from that, we convinced over a dozen apps to stop using the Play Integrity API. You're actively sabotaging all of these efforts.
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS @guilg That's not substantial. That's a dozen. We aim higher, muuuch higher. UA will v also need to work with app-devs. That's the way it is.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist @guilg Very few apps have adopted the Play Integrity API. Convincing a dozen banking apps not to adopt it is very substantial. You're actively sabotaging both our efforts to convince apps not to ban using arbitrary operating systems and also our efforts to convince regulators to stop the Play Integrity API. You're actively working against what we are and yet you think we're going to want to participate. We do not want a group of EU companies in control of this either.
Show threadChuckles5d ago
@GrapheneOS @guilg @vollaficationist it's an ugly deal that the @EUCommission has made with the tech giants in exchange for #ChatControl and #DigitalOmnibus
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission Volla develops not only devices or OS, or AI and more. It's also developing a new ecosystem as well as an infrastructure. Full decoupling. A fully, autonomous communications system. GOS is a hundred thousand miles from this, right. They do googlag-ware and now even Moto, lol.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission Volla sells white labelled devices from an ODM. Your devices don't come close to the security of an iPhone or Pixel. You're making extraordinarily inaccurate attacks on the GrapheneOS project. We're absolutely working on building alternatives to the functionality provided by Google Play and much more. We're actively collaborating with other projects sharing the same goals and approach we have. Volla does not share our goals or approach.
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission I hoped you'd come to this. GOOGLAG is better, right?!? And iPhone... Well, I rest my case. Perhaps you are not who you claim to be? Sure, you're registered in Canada. Registered.
Show threadGrapheneOS5d ago
@vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission You've made it clear you work for Volla. Your posts have been repeatedly written as speaking on their behalf and you've posted non-public information which would only be known to people working at Volla. You're repeatedly making disingenuous attacks on GrapheneOS portraying it as a honey pot and a conspiracy. A company which engages in these tactics to harm GrapheneOS is absolutely not a company which should control what's allowed to be used.
Show threadVollaficationist4d ago
@GrapheneOS @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission Take a seat.
Show threadXtreix5d ago

@vollaficationist @GrapheneOS @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission Yes, an recent iPhone and an recent Pixel, even with the standard OS is much more secure than Volla and its Volla OS, which also supports the disastrous Ubuntu Touch.

Then, Volla is partner with the VPN provider hide.me and include their VPN applications in the operating system. I've never seen anything special about hide.me for security and privacy and I wouldn't trust an operating system that encourage me to use a random VPN provider, always with the misinformation that it would protect me Internet connection, or by making it more "private", including also AI, MicroG privileged and connections to a cloud service, etc, this is a huge red flag.

https://wiki.volla.online/index.php?title=VollaOS_basic_knowledge#What_Does_Using_hide.me_VPN_on_VollaOS_Offer?

VollaOS basic knowledge – Volla Wiki

Show threadVollaficationist4d ago
@Xtreix @GrapheneOS @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission don't be too smart now
Show threadVollaficationist5d ago
@GrapheneOS @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission my dear friend, you did googlag-ware, and now Moto. It's quite amusing just how vigorously you defend American BigTech. Now disclose who is funding this social media frenzy.
Show threadDaniël de Kok5d ago

@vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission And the Volla Phone Quintus is the Daria Bond 5G from an Emirates company (marked up by 560 Euro). Given that Eurowashing, maybe attacking GrapheneOS for using Pixel hardware is a bit rich? At least Pixel has proper device security.

Back to to the original topic. I only have a stake in this as an EU citizen, but having a small set of companies decide who can run what is bad, it's another attack on the freedom of EU citizens.

Show threadKarsten5d ago
@danieldk
I would agree to the lower paragraph and add the following thought:
Maybe it would be wise to not let the only companies with privacy in the mind get divided. Arguments ad hominem are not very convincing.
@vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission @GrapheneOS
Show threadDaniël de Kok4d ago

@khw @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission Centralized remote attestation is diametrically opposed to privacy, since it makes projects vulnerable to pressure to weaken security & privacy, delay updates, etc.

AFAIK the support for remote attestation that is already provided in AOSP does not suffer from this issue, because there is not a single entity that enforces it (banks can whitelist signing key fingerprints).

So the only reason I can think of is control.

Show threadDaniël de Kok4d ago

@khw @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission This is not just a theoretical concern.

Some European countries border on autocracy. Imagine that this initiative is successful. An autocrat could pressure Volla et al. to only attest phones that have a chat backdoor under the thread of banning them from the market.

It is anti-privacy, anti-security, and anti-freedom.

Show threadKarsten4d ago
@danieldk
But that has nothing to do, whatsoever, with the attestation. That said state could pressure volla et al that only phones with backdoor are allowed in the EU.
@vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadGrapheneOS4d ago
@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission It has everything to do with a centralized attestation system. Once this system starts being adopted, the EU can require it for banking/government apps as they began the process of doing with the Play Integrity API. They can then hijack it and begin enforcing their own requirements such including disallowing encryption without backdoors. There should be no organization in charge of which devices and operating systems are allowed.
Show threadGrapheneOS4d ago
@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission If companies insist on permitting only certain devices and operating to be used then the system should be one that's distributed around the world with multiple neutral organizations not tied to the companies making devices or governments. However, delaying updates for certification is inherently anti-security. It would be impossible to quickly ship security patches without breaking compatibility with many important apps.
Show threadKarsten4d ago
@GrapheneOS
But they, the EU, can do this all along. No matter if there is something like attestation or not.
@danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadGrapheneOS4d ago
@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission Attestation enables them to enforce it. Otherwise, people can import devices not complying with the rules they place on devices sold within Europe. Banning people from using devices from elsewhere is far more extreme and oppressive so that's a lot less likely. It's also far harder to enforce and if things have gotten that bad then many people are going to be unintentionally breaking oppressive laws regardless.
Show threadGrapheneOS4d ago
@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission Being able to take away compatibility with banking and government apps based on a system imposing arbitrary rules with certification required for each release is authoritarian. Regardless of the motivation for building this kind of system, the end result is a powerful tool for a police state. Root-based attestation is inherently anti-competitive and primarily useful for controlling people rather than protecting people.
Show threadGrapheneOS4d ago
@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission Pinning-based attestation is a useful security feature for protecting users and has little potential for abuse to prevent competition and enforce authoritarian laws. Root-based attestation is what causes those problems. Root-based attestation has poor security since it depends on none of the TEE/SE implementations getting exploited with their keys extracted. Not much of a security feature when any leaked key can be used to bypass it.
Show threadKarsten4d ago
@GrapheneOS
I guess I don't know enough about THW difference. So you have a link to an explanation?
@danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadKarsten4d ago
@GrapheneOS
That's true but essentially they could forbid it, even with higher impact and less success
@danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadwod0bow4d ago

@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission
There was a time for Europe when every decision for half of current EU countries was dictated from centralized Gov in Moscow.

What is the difference where is placed centralized power? Centralization is a problem here.

Show threadSneezy4d ago

@danieldk @khw @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission

germany is particularly nasty regarding anyone speaking out against genocide and 80 years of war crimes by Israel

staatsrason they call it

Show threadKarsten4d ago
@rapsneezy
Not the topic
@danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadSneezy4d ago

@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission

1. yes it is, it was a reply to "Some European countries border on autocracy. "

2. fuck off with your policing

3. you sound like that 12 year old school prefect, fuck off

Show threadKarsten4d ago
@rapsneezy
Germany is indeed very nasty regarding denying the Holocaust or Antisemitism.
And that's Staatsräson.
Show threadVollaficationist4d ago
@rapsneezy @danieldk @khw @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission yes
Show threadMaya4d ago
@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission I mean, Volla and co want to forbid you from running software of your choice. GOS wants you to be able to run any software you want. It's that's simple. That's not companies arguing, that's one company deciding to take away your personal freedoms for no reason.
Show threadKarsten4d ago
@engideer
I don't know about volla trying to forbid me running certain Software, but you are right. I haven't seen real arguments in this case for a long time. That's all I said. No arguments ad hominem, but arguments on this case, please.
@danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadMaya4d ago

@khw @danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission

I was referring exactly to Unified Attestation, the topic of this thread. UA is essentially a direct clone of the Google Play Integrity API. The rough summary is that both technologies offer an API that apps can query, asking whether they (the app) is running on a "certified" operating system. In the case of GPI, Google has a list of OSes they deem "acceptable", while in UA's case, Volla has a list of OSes they deem "acceptable". In either case, the technology forbids you from running an operating system of your choice, since Google/Volla have to approve your choice, or otherwise you won't get to run apps on it. Technologically there's a bit more complexity and nuance here, but this is essentially what it comes down to.

This is why GOS is so strongly opposed to this. Because centralized attestation is fundamentally an anti-freedom technology. It doesn't matter whether the jail is run by company A or B: a jail is always a jail.

Show threadKarsten4d ago
@engideer
I can understand this.
@danieldk @vollaficationist @celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadAndy  4d ago
@vollaficationist
I was an early adopter and beta tester of the first Volla phone and VollaOS back in the days.
Development was a mess and the two supported operating systems were too much load for the company. Now that you develop AI I think that's the only chance to get things done for a bunch of rebranded low end devices running outdated insecure software.
@celeduc @GrapheneOS @guilg @EUCommission
Show threadVlad_33015d ago
@GrapheneOS @guilg @vollaficationist Если бы помогли выиграть России суд над гуглом, где долг исчесляеться 37 нулями .
То денег на таки суды бы им не хватило. 🤣