thinking about the noita demake… how can I change the gameplay to fit with toki pona?
in noita, everything tries to kill you! the fun part (for me at least) is abusing spell mechanics to design crazy wands that err… kill things better
this fits if the world is out to get you, but I don't think toki pona is that kind of world…
@notchoc This is a question I've spent a lot of time thinking about, so brace yourself for an infodump.
Why is combat so effective at what it does, and why can't it be replaced?
In theory, game mechanics can represent anything. You ought to be able to reskin a combat game, keeping the mechanics but replacing the story, and have the gameplay be just as fun as it was. So why don't more devs do that?
Well, if all you do is swap a coat of paint, it'll be obvious. Like a kid's cartoon where they edit out the blood and pretend everything's fine.
So you have to make a deeper change, rebuilding the mechanics to fit the new story. And somewhere along the line, something gets lost, making the game less interesting and strategic.
@notchoc To bring this back around to Noita, there are at least two things that risk being lost.
First, the emotional rollercoaster of overcoming dangerous foes. It starts with a jolt as you notice the danger, then goes to planning or panic as you fight, and ends with triumph or despair as you win or lose. Strong enemies elicit a visceral reaction whenever you see them, which they wouldn't if they weren't out to get you.
Second, the chaos of wands and physics. Part of Noita's appeal is the fantasy of gaining power, and you feel that power because you can destroy enemies and terrain that used to be tough. If you weren't supposed to cut loose, it'd be hard to feel that power gain.
I think (hope) that both of these are solvable. I'd like to believe that Toki Pona Noita can be scary and exhilarating, with an intricate spell crafting system and the potential for world-changing results, all without combat.
I'm off for now, but more on this later, if you're interested.
@notchoc To translate the idea, I'd start by thinking about how they fit into Noita. Then I'd look at the demake and figure out how something could fill the same role there.
Hämis is small, weak, jumpy, and moderately aggressive. At least until you make friends, at which point you can pet it. Many players find it cute, either because of its appearance, behavior, or both. It certainly helps that you can find eggs with a friendly Hämis, so you don't need to know about pheromone.
Sauvojen tuntija ambushes the player after they find one of the game's early secrets. It'll usually end an unprepared player's run, but it makes for a memorable moment. Arguably, the important thing is the sequence of events it's part of: discovering a way over the lava, crossing the bridge in eerie silence, finding and taking the reward, and then having the moment of triumph crushed. All this helps sell Noita's reputation as a game about discovery and a game that punishes you harshly.
@notchoc That's their context in Noita. To translate them for a demake, we'd need to consider the new context.
Let's assume the demake is a gardening game, as andnull said. Still with simulated pixels of course, but most spells are about growing new pixels, not destroying them.
In Noita, enemies would attack you and each other, and sometimes destroy pixels too. So that would have to be flipped around as well: Sauvojen tuntija wouldn't have a matter-eating aura and explosive spells, it'd have a growing aura (or no aura, that's easier) and shoot seeds(?).
Many enemies (like Hämis) don't destroy terrain, just deplete HP. It's not obvious what the opposite of that could be. When they're aggressive, they make a demand of you: dodge or kill them, or they'll deplete a finite resource. If they're friendly and heal you (the literal opposite of damage), you just stand there and wait, no skill required.
The solution could be some kind of trade. They'll help you, but you have to help in return (an implicit demand).
@notchoc I'm thinking about this in terms of symbiosis. In nature, various plants and animals can have mutually beneficial relationships, each providing something the other can't get as easily. Common trades include food for protection, food for pollination, or shelter for pest control.
If this is a game without combat, protection is harder to represent, but food and shelter both work. In fact, they could both interact with the pixel simulation: make the right kind of food by combining ingredients, and build shelter from an oncoming flood. (Or shelter from the results of combining the wrong chemicals.)
Instead of low health, Hämis would be easy to please, happy with even the simplest spells (seeds?) you can cast. Whereas Sauvojen tuntija has lots of resistances, negating a lot of common wand types. So in the demake it would be picky, requiring a specialized or powerful wand build to uphold your end of the bargain.
@notchoc Next question: how do you track this, mechanically? What button do you press for a fair deal, or an unfair one?
And what's the penalty if it isn't fair? Does your run end? If not, what's your incentive to care?
My first thought is to track your reputation. If you take too much and don't give back, your reputation suffers and everyone stops interacting with you. But then, could you ruin someone else's reputation by giving them too much stuff? That feels wrong.
Maybe it's better to think of it as contributions/debt to society, in a non-judgemental way. You've got a bar that shows your current balance, between -100 and +100. If it's negative, you owe society and have to spend time giving back before you leave. If it's positive, society owes you, and they have to do something nice for you before you leave. Only when it's near 0 can you progress.
And maybe your mana/energy bar decreases over time, and you must accept gifts to refill it. If it runs out, you move slower and can't use wands.
@notchoc In this vision, it becomes a game of catch. You aren't trying to dodge attacks, you're jumping into whatever is being given to you. And then throwing something back to them in return. Takes a similar skillset but tells a different story.
I suppose you'd make it less effective at close range, to preserve some of the challenge. Otherwise you'd just stand next to each other.
@notchoc One last thought, then I'm done for now.
In Noita, a boss monster is scary because it can kill you. If you remove killing and replace it with that -100 to +100 bar (call it "helpfulness points," or HP for short), the worst it can do is knock you down to -100. (That is, unless you've found HP upgrades to increase the cap.)
And if you have a weak wand that only gives back a bit at a time, you could find yourself trapped, constantly being reset back to -100. Effectively, the run is over at that point.
Which is why I suggested formulating it as a "debt to society," not a debt to the specific creature you're dealing with. You don't have to deal with the boss if you're not ready, you can leave and pay your dues elsewhere. It's a big setback but the run isn't over.
notchoc
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