Mastodawn

Some additional reading:

How do I delete a post? https://fedi.tips/how-do-i-delete-a-post-on-mastodon/

Who can see my posts and replies? https://fedi.tips/who-can-see-my-posts-in-mastodon-how-do-i-send-dms-in-mastodon/

Fediverse never Forgets https://berk.es/2022/12/23/fediverse-never-forgets/

Provide a mechanism for acknowledgements of Delete activities https://github.com/w3c/activitypub/issues/406

Improve UI/UX copy for "Automated Post Deletion" to clarify data persistence https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/discussions/37955

How do I delete a post on Mastodon? | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse

An unofficial guide to using Mastodon and the Fediverse

Why "Delete" is complicated in the #Fediverse

Unlike X or Facebook where one company owns the only copy of your post, Mastodon and other Social Web apps use the #ActivityPub protocol.

When you post, your server (e.g. toot.wales) sends a copy to some number of servers (e.g. mastodon.social) - anywhere from one to 40,000 depending on a bunch of stuff.

When you delete, your server sends a Delete request to all those same servers.

However, your server can't force the other 40,000 servers to actually erase the data.

Most servers honour the request instantly, but if a server is offline, over-capacity, or malicious, that copy may stay on their hard drive, and visible online, indefinitely.

In the decentralised world of the Social Web, "Delete" is a request, not a command.

audioflyer79 Mar 9

@jaz so why do some people make a point of setting their toots to delete after some period of time?

@audioflyer79 some percent, maybe 100 percent, of those toots will be deleted.

Jérôme Mar 9

@audioflyer79 @jaz some people also do it as to save disk storage on their instance.

Josh

@jaz people also need to understand this about things like training LLMs, and search indexing. There is absolutely no way to stop someone from using your toots for those purposes, as long as they can follow you.

Bernd Petrovitsch🔴🔴🔴♂️🏳️‍🌈🇦🇹🇪🇺Mar 9

@jaz you also can't force X or whatever to delete your post...

@ovrim one tiny anecdata point

Momo Mar 10

@jaz
I assume the same applies to "Edit"? I mean it makes sense, why would it be handled differently.

And good to know. I rarely delete toots but sometimes I edit them when I see typos.

Marcus Rohrmoser 🌻Mar 9

Hi @jaz,
once published, it's public. Period.

I am very much for a "best before end" expiry hint on /everything/. Hoarders may keep it anyway. It's on their pile of compost then.

Mar 16

Well, this was educational. One in five respondents do not/did not realise copies are created on third party services.

The federating software/interfaces need to start explaining this more thoroughly and simply in my opinion.

Started a discussion here: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/discussions/37955

Axomamma, Antifa from birth Mar 17

@jaz Does it help the instance servers if one uses auto delete? That's part of my thinking in choosing to auto delete after six months.

Mar 17

@Axomamma I'd say check with your admin. In general, paying for this service is rough for most, more likely we need shared storage to help reduce costs for the network, and better education around this very important difference in approach (federated copies) that most people coming from traditional social media wouldn't even think to ask about.

Axomamma, Antifa from birth Mar 17

@jaz I do have a running monthly donation. I'm not going to inquire further. I'm not a particularly heavy poster, so if it doesn't make a difference, meh. if it helps, yay me.

Alien_Sunset Mar 17

@jaz I’ve noticed a lot of knowledge gap based faux pas recently with so many new people coming in from other platforms, and @stefan ‘s join the fediverse site ( https://jointhefediverse.net/?lang=en-us ) and @FediTips can only help so much (and only if the users know they exist!)

There are so many instances where documentation/information in places where the user will actually see it is lacking and causing misunderstandings and conflicts 😕

Join the fediverse!

Learn about the fediverse and find your community.

Hywel Mar 9

@jaz I confess that I’ve never thought about it. Makes sense.

Susanna the Artist 🌻Mar 9

@jaz Dammit, this means my most idiotic replies are probably still out there somewhere. I’m going to be a lot more careful about my reply guy tendencies from here on.

Kat Mar 9

@jaz "I thought it worked like Facebook or X"
who also send copies of your post around the world, and definitely don't delete them when you ask them to...

Gillinger Mar 9

@jaz @Natasha_Jay
Where's the option for "I didn't have a clue"?
Put me down as a +1

Maria Gatta Mar 9

@jaz I am aware of this case scenario, but only because it literally happened to me (someone had access to a long-deleted post)

@M_Gatta Too many people learn the hard way...

Eliza MB Mar 9

@jaz
Same applies to edits?

jer Mar 10

@OneInterestingFact

Yes, but with an additional wrinkle. When you post, your instance sends copies to all the instances of people you follow, and an edit does the same—but if one of your followers boosts your post to an instance where no one follows you, it won't ever get the edit because your instance doesn't know it needs to tell that instance to edit.

Right. Ok. So now I discover I don't understand boosts.
:{

Dianora (Diane Bruce)Mar 9

@jaz Just like USEnet. Natch. No surprise.

Cassandrich Mar 9

@jaz Yes and that's not quite accurate. It only sends your post to instances you have a follower on or that you @'d. If you have 4000 followers that's at most 4000 instances and more likely less than 100, not 40000. It may eventually federate to more via boosts, explicit loads, etc. but it doesn't automatically go to every instance.

@dalias Consider relays and hashtag subscriptions. Also consider the followers of people who boost your post.

Cassandrich Mar 9

@jaz I did mention boosts. Hashtags are irrelevant unless you use them and they still don't push to other instances. Someone on another instance will only see your post under a hashtag search if your post already federated to their instance for another reason.

@dalias There are hashtag relays specifically to bring in posts using specific hashtags.

Glyph Mar 9

@jaz @bitprophet I guess I had a slightly inaccurate understanding. I would have thought that my follower count would be an upper bound on the number of copies? if I have 1 follower and they’re on the same instance as me, does it still get copied 40k times?

@glyph @bitprophet no, it is copied from 1 to 40,000+ times depending on your social graph. It is sent to your followers or the servers where your followers live then to the followers of people who boost your post, plus servers that use relays to bring in content, hashtag services (if you add a hashtag) that subscribe to posts with certain hashtags.

If you used followers-only, then the upper limit is indeed your follower count, the above is for public posts.

sabik Mar 10

@jaz @glyph @bitprophet
also to clients with functions like "remote conversations" or "remote profiles", and then if the user interacts with the post, even just a favourite, to their corresponding servers

My camera shoots fascists Mar 10

@jaz @glyph @bitprophet

This is why I'm considering setting posts to auto delete and followers only and going through and reviewing existing followers and vetting new ones from here out.

The world is changing so quickly that I think I'd rather have anything I say be a little more under my control and ability to remove. Having fewer public posts would also provide less data for bot scrapers.

Bernd Petrovitsch🔴🔴🔴♂️🏳️‍🌈🇦🇹🇪🇺Mar 9

@jaz it's the same since ages with email and usenet and ...

Lee from Colorado Mar 9

@jaz Voted understand completely because I do understand federated systems. But, I'm sure there are some corner cases, like the delete-aging-posts question above, that I haven't thought thru all the way. I'd be very surprised if there weren't some systems "following" accounts purely to create archives and that these systems absolutely ignore delete requests ...

https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#delete-activity-inbox

@colo_lee The spec itself only marks Delete as a "Should" (Delivery is a "Must")

Cassian Mar 9

@jaz Up to over! :D

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦Mar 10

@jaz @Kingslayer Also good to know that not all servers keep everything forever. Mine deletes anything older than 180 days. The fediverse isn’t guaranteed to be forever, either.

muddle Mar 10

@jaz I picked the "I know everything" option, not because I know everything but because I'm sure the fediverse must be intuitively obvious to everyone (even if nobody understands it).

Kelly, (who Cannot, Today)Mar 10

@jaz I knew those specific points but I'd still say I have only a vague understanding of federation in general, it gets way more confusing than that.

Charlie Mar 10

@jaz The phrasing of this suggests that Twitter or Facebook actually delete your posts when you hit 'delete'.

Mar 10

@cdp1337 whether or not they actually delete posts is not the question.

What they do is make those posts no longer visible on their network, which is not necessarily the case on /this/ network.

U.Lancier Mar 10

@jaz Yes, I understand **that aspect of** federation completely.

TieBlackSquirrel Mar 10

@FreakyFwoof @jaz Yep, but I've seen plenty of incriminating posts lol!

Jeff Mar 10

@jaz Another area I think is confusing to most users is that just about everything you post is public. Meaning, your data is passed across the network with a handshake and a prayer that the receiving instance will know how to appropriately identify your followers only posts, your direct messages (unencrypted), etc.

We are lucky that most AP software systems have basically good humans behind them, and we only really see an issue when bugs pop up now and then.

But that won't always be the case.

Jesper (Friendica) 🇩🇰Mar 10

@jaz I actually thought that my posts were sent to servers of users that follow me. But you are telling me that they are sent to ALL SERVERS?

Mar 10

@jrossstocholm for public posts, your followers' servers' are a starting point. If they boost/quote you, it carries on to their followers' servers'. There are also various relay services that pull in public posts whether you're followed there or not. There are bots scanning local timelines to pull in or boost posts. Posting publicly means it goes to more than just your followers, but very much not /all/ servers.

Jesper (Friendica) 🇩🇰Mar 11

@jaz Ok - that was also my impression. It get it that there can be a ripple-effect when followers boost or interact, but I still feel like it is a stretch to say that my posts are to be stored on up to 40,000 servers. You make it sound like every server in the #fediverse will have a replica of the entire fediverse.

😊

Zeroday Podcast (stefan)Mar 11

@jaz I would love to have an interview with the (right now) 2% of users that think it would work like twitter.

Not in a bad way, but to understand where they are coming from, where the hurdles are and why/what/when/what else... The typical questions one has when he tries to write an article for the podcast ...

Mar 17

@zeroday my anecdotal understanding is they have the belief that just like those platforms, when you delete a post, it makes that post no longer visible.

Many people think federation means "make my content visible in other places on this network based on my preferences and subject to future control of that content" not "make copies of my content and hand them over to other services on this network for eternal storage out of my control".

@jaz So, just the same as email, then?

Mar 13

@hypostase email doesn't purport to be a web publishing social networking platform.

99.999% of people understand that email is delivered to other people inboxes, and is only read by the people they send it to and the people they forward it to.

Roughly 20% of respondents to the poll do not understand the same is true of public posts on the social web.

I'm really happy you understand how it works. This is an exercise to ascertain how many people do not share your awareness.

@jaz And 5 9s probably don’t really consider who it might be forwarded to.

Sure, not everybody’s amusing (for some value of amusing) little story shared via email goes viral, nor turns up in discovery.

It’s just that very few people consider the implications before they press the send button, and that is pretty much the same problem.

Mar 13

@hypostase People also understand that 99.9% of the time, their emails delivered to other people don't show up on Google/Bing/DDG, unlike their deleted posts on this network, which very much do get indexed.

@jaz understand is a strong word.

Google probably knows more about me from what sits in my brother’s inbox than I’m comfortable with, and they’ve the pretty shiny tools to make it actionable.

That said, I’d not admit to the things I may have admitted to a decade ago, in any electronic medium.

Sure, I’ve chosen to trust the good folks who run the server I connect with, and I understand that it’s a trust choice, but I don’t think most people make that choice actively.

And understand really belongs in an active choice context.

Mar 13

@hypostase I'm really trying to avoid conflating "Google the company reads my email" from "Google makes my deleted emails publicly visible on the web for anyone to read".

These things are not the same.

@jaz fair.

The problem isn’t only a fedi problem, though.

Clearly we’re coming at this from different places, and while I might be paranoid about what google the company may disclose, with or without a warrant, that’s unlikely to be a concern from most.

Klinker Mar 15

@jaz "hazy understanding" of everything here. This is an important point for my beloved fedi (along with the others on "DM" and searches).

So, better think that once written on the internet it can be in principle retrieved by anyone.

On the other hand, a quick search for content from an old account of mine from a now-defunct instance, doesn't find much. Probably as indefinite storage it's costly for severs operated by individuals. So, the memory is labile, but it cannot be guaranteed to be.