Mastodawn

I deactivated Google Play on my phone. The electricity company app was the first to be bricked. 'You must update.'

I wrote to them: ’I don’t have Google or Apple. Where else can I update the app?’ Nowhere else, they replied.

I wrote (politely) back: ’I can’t use your app any more then. It’s an odd requirement to make of your customers. A Norlys customer can only access all Norlys services if they are also a customer of one of two specific private for-profit US companies.’

#DanmarkSkifter

I mentioned that there is a growing grassroots movement in Denmark to boycott the US and to switch away from BigTech. And that it therefore seems like an outdated strategy for them to say: 'If they want to use all our services, the Danish customers of our company here in Denmark must also be a customer of Google or Apple in the USA.'

To support my reference to a growing tendency to move away from Big Tech, I linked to the #DanmarkSkifter website.

https://danmarkskifter.dk/en/

About Danmark Skifter

42% of Danes want to try new alternatives to Big Tech. 68% would like to reduce their screen time. But far fewer act on it. Together, we can change that. What is Danmark Skifter? Danmark Skifter is a national campaign where thousands of Danes take back control of their digital

Danmark Skifter

To my pleasant surprise, I got a nice and considered response. Paraphrased: They appreciated my feedback as a customer and user of their digital solutions. And they have passed my point about ’a growing focus on alternatives to profit-driven IT solutions’ further up the line internally so that the right department is aware of the trend and requests like mine from customers.

Fair play to Norlys for not just sending a standard or dismissive response.

#DanmarkSkifter

I don’t think I would have got that response if I hadn’t been able to link to the DanmarkSkifter campaign site. That showed there really is a grassroots movement and that people are actually making the switch away from BigTech.

Tak and thank you to everyone at #DanmarkSkifter for giving us a way to talk about the need for change and the tools to actually make the changes.

I don't know if other countries have an equivalent to the 'Denmark Switches' campaign. I hope so. It's a great initiative.

Agnieszka R. Turczyńska Mar 8

@CiaraNi I wish I knew there is something similar in NL. @Gina, do you know, perhaps?

@agturcz @CiaraNi that's awesome, I hope the electricity company does something with your request.

We don't have a similar campaign in the Netherlands, but we do have a similar problem. I'd love to get a Fairphone or any linux based phone with an alternative app store like @fdroidorg , but then my banking apps wouldn't work anymore. Same with DigiD (gov auth).

It would be great if gov and companies offered their apps in non-proprietary app stores. Maybe we need a campaign too @bo

Agnieszka R. Turczyńska Mar 8

@Gina @CiaraNi @fdroidorg @bo At least a place, which could be a central point of information. What we want? Why we want it? What are the benefits? And a news stream (with RSS!) with anything worth coverage regarding the matter. Create a pressure. If anything like that would happen, please keep me informed 😊

@Gina @agturcz @fdroidorg @bo Same problem here with banking apps and, in some cases, the government ID app. I hope non-proprietary versions come soon. The government ID ('mitID') app problem is easy to work around, at least - there's a non-app alternative, a nice simple physical code-displayer. (I'm blanking on the English word for the yoke.)

@CiaraNi "MitID code display"! There's also a little device that reads the code out loud. I think that one is called MitID audio reader.

They're free btw. And even if people also use the MitID app they should have it as a backup if for some reason their phone craps out. :-)

@Gina @agturcz @fdroidorg @bo

@Pepijn Thanks! I was, by chance, close enough with 'code-displayer' so. I love my little code-display, it is so quick to use. I have the physical Chip version too as a back-up. And there's a physical audio version too, as you say. You have to pay for an extra physical device, but it's a reasonable price, and ok given that the first code-display is free.

@Gina @agturcz @fdroidorg @bo

Grey Pilgrim Mar 8

Maybe @bert_hubert or @barbarakathmann can give pointers?

Simon Hewison Mar 8

@Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg @bo or they could just do a responsive web site rather than have to develop two mobile phone apps for Google/Apple. Far easier for everyone.

@zymurgic Yes, agreed

@Gina @agturcz @fdroidorg @bo

UkeleleEric Mar 9

@zymurgic @Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg @bo A website means that anyone with a web-accessible device, not just a smartphone, can use it, including people with disabilities, like screenreader users. Apps presume the capacity on your phone, and you have to physically download, and there are privacy and security concerns due to the way that most apps work, including sending data unencrypted, and their atrocious security policies.

@UkeleleEric I am actually enjoying ditching some apps. The website is there if I need it. Less bloat on my phone and no constant tracking attempts.

Boris VAN HOYTEMA Mar 9

For DigiD specifically the app can now be used without Google, though distribution still only happens through the Google Play Store.

If trust is the issue here it would seemingly make sense for, in time, a government like the European Commission to provide a trusted alternative to these app stores. That might be worth setting up a campaign for.

@agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg

Renke Meuwese Mar 9

@bo @Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg yeah, now that would be a great example of a digital public good.

@meuwese @bo @Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg

This sounds like a potentially cool initiative (dutch article about the German smartphone manufacturer Volla that is collaborating with various European smartphone companies to develop an open-source alternative to Google Play Integrity called #UnifiedAttestation)

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/245578/volla-maakt-met-europese-bedrijven-opensourcealternatief-google-play-integrity.html

Volla maakt met Europese bedrijven opensourcealternatief Google Play Integrity

De Duitse smartphonefabrikant Volla ontwikkelt samen met verschillende Europese smartphonebedrijven een opensourcealternatief voor Google Play Integrity. De software wordt gepubliceerd onder een Apache 2.0-licentie en is daarmee ook in commerciële producten te gebruiken.

Tweakers

Boris VAN HOYTEMA Mar 9

This cleanly fits the EU policy goal of 'Countering information manipulation'. A petition can be lodged here: https://commission.europa.eu/get-involved/engage-eu-policymaking/petition-eu_en

@agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg

Petition the EU

Individuals or organisations in the EU can submit petitions to the EU on issues related to EU policy or law. Find out how to create, sign and when to submit one.

European Commission

@bo @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg wait so how can Digid be used without Google if you can only get it through the Google Play store?

Boris VAN HOYTEMA Mar 9

https://tweakers.net/nieuws/215204/inloggen-op-digid-app-kan-voortaan-ook-op-telefoons-zonder-googles-qr-scanner.html

@agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg

Inloggen op DigiD-app kan voortaan ook op telefoons zonder Googles QR-scanner

Het is voortaan mogelijk om met een QR-code in te loggen op DigiD zonder dat daarvoor de QR-codescanner van Google nodig is. Hierdoor kunnen onder meer Fairphone-gebruikers voortaan van deze inlogmethode gebruikmaken, zo meldt DigiD-beheerder Logius.

Tweakers

@bo @Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg

Na mn vakantie maar eens #eos installeren op mn #Fairphone

#DigitaleAutonomie

Irene, antifascist Mar 9

@bo @Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg

Je kunt Digid ook downloaden in Aurora, google-loos dus.

richarddebruin Mar 9

@Gina @bo @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg With the Aurora store, but on the background it is also the Google Playstore. Only anonymous. But it can be used without the Google Play Services. So it would be a better solution if they offer the official apk on their website.

Wouter Kobes Mar 9

@bo @Gina DigiD can be used without Google, but only on iOS or Android OS right? Might be more effective in the long run to make gov apps like DigiD OS independent (e.g. also usable on Ubuntu Touch), than to aim for a EU app store within these two ecosystems

Open Risk Mar 9

@Gina @agturcz @CiaraNi @fdroidorg @bo

they do not only require you to have one of the Apple/Google OS devices to participate in anything, you must also keep buying new ones because of planned obsolescence / not supporting older versions.

Happened to me: banking app stoped working because android phone was getting "old" (was still otherwise fully functional).

Forceful e-waste on top of the surveillance etc

I don't know how European politicians can see themselves in the mirror to be honest.

@openrisk Agreed. The avoidable e-waste us scandalous.

Julius Schwartzenberg - Юліус Mar 8

@agturcz @CiaraNi @Gina there is https://www.appdwang.nl/ by @kevin.

At the same time, I haven't ran into a smartphone requirement myself yet in the Netherlands, either generally or blessed by Apple/Google. Such situation would create a problem as I would not have a suitable device.
Especially banks do appear notorious to try to push for this though.

Bied weerstand tegen appdwang! | appdwang.nl

Bied weerstand tegen appdwang en laat je geen apps opdringen! Op appdwang.nl vind je praktijkvoorbeelden en argumenten om duidelijk te maken wat je van appdwang vindt.

Kevin Keijzer Mar 8

@jschwart @agturcz @CiaraNi @Gina I've also never faced a smartphone requirement myself, but admittedly I do go out of my way to avoid getting into situations where that might happen, and I'm also perfectly willing to not do things if they would require those devices, just like I simply walk by any store that says "PIN only".

So I guess I'm not the best example case here. Banks are indeed the most problematic, although I do have accounts at four Dutch banks that don't require Android or iOS.

@kevin I have adopted a similar policy. I walk away from digital solutions or companies that want to force an unwanted digital solution on me. Or that refuse to take cash. With an essential service like utilities, I can't not be a customer, but I can and did delete the electricity company's app. I've only ever used a web browser for banking, so have luckily avoided that problem - coercive funtions in banking apps seems to be a big problem for many people.

Kevin Keijzer Mar 8

@CiaraNi I've always lived like this, so I never really had to change my ways. So yeah, I guess it's easy for me to say how easy it is.

And in the Netherlands the situation is relatively okay. Sure, there are some places I can't go and some things I can't do, but when I then hear stories about Sweden with their Mobile BankID for everything and many Swedes not even knowing what their physical currency looks like, that really makes me shiver..

Kevin Keijzer Mar 8

@CiaraNi But my electricity provider (Eneco) and the grid operator (Stedin) both just have websites here that I can open in Firefox on Debian on a coreboot-powered PC, so I'm not even sure if they have "apps".

And I'm also not sure what I would be missing if I couldn't access that. I mean, they e-mail me a PDF every month, so even if I couldn't log in to the website, I'd still have a monthly overview.

@kevin Sweden and London, the two places I've had most problems paying with cash. I now actively stick to cash for over-the-counter transactions here (Denmark) on a 'use it or lose it' principle.

Kevin Keijzer Mar 8

@CiaraNi Here in the Netherlands "PIN only" is really a large city thing, and even there it's rare.

I live in a village in the bible belt, and over here it's unthinkable that a shopkeeper would not accept cash.

I have my office in the center of the second largest city in the country, and even there it's rare to find places that don't accept cash. They exist, but the place right next to it will accept it then.

And we have a law coming up next year that makes cash acceptance mandatory.

@kevin That's good to hear - a law making cash acceptance mandatory

UkeleleEric Mar 9

@CiaraNi @kevin Ironically, outside London,much of the rest of the UK seems to accept all forms of payment for most things, and cash is still the primary form for many small transactions. I have a fairphone which has a NFC sensor, but my banking app doesn't do that, and I don't have a Google account on here, so I have no way of using it if I wanted. I have debit and credit cards, and cash. On my computer (connected to my router by wire), I have access to a couple of other electronic systems.

@UkeleleEric What surprises me every time in London is that everyone seems to have normalised places not taking cash. People are surprised that I am surprised and that I object to it, like I'm being old-fashioned.

UkeleleEric 5d ago

@CiaraNi Yeah, round here (East Midlands), most places take cash and other forms of payment, with many smaller places accepting cash only for low level transactions (eg. below £5, say). There are a few cash-only places, and a few no-cash ones.

@UkeleleEric I hope we can stave off the move to cashless onsite payment everywhere it has been creeping in.

Joris (dwz)Mar 9

@agturcz
I got a nice response from Dutch railways #NS (once I found an in) and they removed the Google Play verification they sort of accidentally introduced. Still have to sideload, though.
Dutch public broadcaster #NOS has switched to just one radio app though which verifies if the app is installed through Google Play. Nice email response saying they don't care.
@CiaraNi @Gina

Michael Jack Mar 8

There is Digital Independence Day in Germany, also called DI.DAY. From December 2025:

https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2025/ccc-unterstutzt-den-monatlichen-digital-independence-day

CCC | CCC unterstützt den monatlichen Digital Independence Day

Der Chaos Computer Club ist eine galaktische Gemeinschaft von Lebewesen für Informationsfreiheit und Technikfolgenabschätzung.

@mjack Oh that's right! I have heard about that. A great initiative too. Thanks for the reminder.

Benjamin Balder Bach Mar 8

@mjack @CiaraNi ironic that the .day domain (like .dev) is owned by Google... tells a lot about how hard it really is to break free from big tech https://blog.google/company-news/outreach-and-initiatives/entrepreneurs/today-dotday/

(also great initiative, seems like listing Danish events there would be a very quick and convenient way to join/connect the dots on the map)

Today is the .day

.day, the latest top-level domain extension from Google Registry, helps you bring attention to any important day

Google

@benjaoming @mjack I am a fan of Almost Perfect and Almost Activism in these kinds of cases. Better to make some moves, to do something, even if there are impurities, like a Google-owned domain. 'Almost' is good. As you say - it's hard to break really free, and certainly not in one go.

I like the idea of connecting the dots on the map, the different digital independence campaigns in cross-border solidarity. That's a great suggestion.

caffetino Mar 8

@CiaraNi this is great! I can't imagine this in the UK

@caffetino Fair play to the volunteers who started the campaign. There's a similar one in Germany and maybe other places. I hope you get something similar in the UK!

@CiaraNi @caffetino

🤞🤞🤞

The Polish Dispatch Mar 8

@CiaraNi interesting story. Does not having a mobile app precludes you entirely from paying your bills or you can continue by making bank wire transfers?

@ThePolishDispatch Oh no, not that bad, thankfully. I can still log on to my customer profile on their website and billing continues by automatic standing order as usual. Some of the useful features from the app aren't in their web services, though, and it's not handy for me to access on my mobile. So it's less convenient for checking my data, my consumption, hour-by-hour pricing, bill status etc. I can't do it on the fly, on my phone, any more.

Ray McCarthy Mar 8

@ThePolishDispatch @CiaraNi
Revolut can't be used without an App.
An Post Banking has limited counter services without the App.
But PayPal and my Credit card work 100% on the website without an App. Both keep advertising the App, which I have never installed.
Also the daft Credit Card people think adding my account to Google Wallet and adding NFC is more secure.
I only use the CC online & the card lives at home. NFC is disabled. I have no intention of using Google pay/wallet. Or having Apple.

@raymaccarthy @ThePolishDispatch People keep recommending Revolut to me, particularly in Ireland, it seems to be common there. Every time I say: nope, not a chance, not another app. I use cash and, when unavoidable, my bank card when I travel.

Ray McCarthy Mar 8

@CiaraNi @ThePolishDispatch
I have Revolut with a small float and purely for online where I don't want to use the Credit Card. I don't even have a Revolut plastic card, just a virtual one which saves money.
It's also a horrible app.

The Polish Dispatch Mar 8

@CiaraNi @raymaccarthy When I first heard about Revolut years ago it seemed like an interesting option for some use cases, but then I learned about their questionable work culture...

Ray McCarthy Mar 8

@ThePolishDispatch @CiaraNi
Obviously using Revolut to purchase without an app works (virtual card online and optional plastic card for physical shopping. But the App is needed to create the account and manage it or make a payment via IBAN.

@raymaccarthy @ThePolishDispatch I'm at the Cranky With Big Tech stage where I won't even use a new app to start something and then delete it after setting up. It's time-consuming enough getting away from the ones I already have.

The Polish Dispatch Mar 8

@CiaraNi @raymaccarthy Same! I am very app-allergic. The few I have on my phone have very good reasons to be there.

@ThePolishDispatch @raymaccarthy I have had only a shortlist of apps on my phone, and that's getting shortened further since I dropped Google Play.

Martin Vermeer FCD Mar 8

@CiaraNi @ThePolishDispatch @raymaccarthy Actually a good idea. It also reduces the attack surface.

@martinvermeer @ThePolishDispatch @raymaccarthy It's certainly simpler, at any rate

RE: https://mastodon.nu/@suddigare/116194365649110453

@CiaraNi Some people from Sweden got inspired and has startede something.

@asbjornn Hvor fedt! Flot gået af dem. Danmark, Tyskland, Sverige - det vokser! Tak fordi du delte.