Mastodawn

@randahl This is not coming for free though as expenditures of Europe+US surpass €300 bn and death toll is in the several hundreds of thousands.
This is not a football match

nobody serious thinks it is a football match or even remotely implied that

this is ethnofascist mass murdering imperialism vs a people defending their lives and their lands

we're allowed to rejoice in their successes without being accused of being mere football spectators

@benroyce @randahl No accusations - just reminding that reaching the peace is not a matter of sq. kms but of dialogue

tell the kremlin that, not us

putin and the kremlin have shown time and time and time again that dialog does not work. they are dishonorable. they keep no agreements. they have no intention of meeting peace. for them, dialog is just a tactic to twist to their advantage, and any "peace "is temporary in order for them to rearm, and then attack again on a stupid lie

you are very naive, or straight up lying, about what putin and the kremlin are and what they represent

@benroyce @randahl Yours is a very simplistic view of the events unfolding. It's in your rights to take the parts of Ukraine, however it is undeniable that this war is also a consequence of exploiting the change of leadership in Ukraine to turn it into a US-NATO outpost . Russia escalated the war, but this was not the only cause. EU is intentionally stalling the negotiations by proposing unfeisable terms such as european army presence in Ukraine

😂 😂 😂

vatniks are so fucking easy to sniff out

NATO did not expand east, geopolitics professor

eastern europe ran screaming and pounding on the door to be let in

if you figure out why, what worried them, you might begin to catch a glimmer of honesty apart from your "blame the victim" stupid easy bullshit you push here

bullshit that you fell for as a pathetic moron lapping up hilarious kremlin lies

or that you are pushing here as the putin boot licking loser you are

@benroyce @randahl Wow! Labeling thoughts different than yours as foreign propaganda is not unprecedented.
I'm sorry that you are getting angry - but this will not change the real world. I invite you and who is reading to read more about the history of Eastern Europe from qualified sources and most importantly start reflecting a bit on the mechanisms that cause wars

ah yes

the "noble differences of opinion" defense from the lying sleazebag vatnik

*anyone* who buys this "russia had reasons because NATO expansion" is a complete and utter moron, or a complete and utter liar

that's all you are and all you represent with your putin bootlicking bullshit

that is the source of your "honest point of view"

you are nothing more than a pathetic moron or a liar

100%

your weak stupid lies are for mocking, nothing more

you're a joke

surely you're not implying that the West's motives to provoke and remain in this conflict are pure

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]

the west sucks

but anyone equivocating on that in defense of outright kremlin mass murdering ethnofascist imperialism is a fucking moron or liar

it's possible to dislike both the west and russia. in fact, that's the moral position

but it's not possible to respect this DARVO "reverse victim and offender" bullshit from tankies and vatniks. it's gaslighting

nothing pure or noble about it

it's lies to support imperialism

just because it isn't western imperialism? LOL!

and fuck off with this "remain in this conflict" lie

*ukraine* is in the conflict because if they stop they are going to be genocided

to posit them as some puppet of the west, and that because the west might benefit in some way one must oppose ukraine's desire to keep fighting for their literal fucking lives is so viciously entitled it's hard for me to do anything but stick a middle finger up at this vile manipulation of what is actually going on here

so, what are Europe's pure motives to keep the conflict underway? surely it's not because they care so much more about Ukrainians than about Gazans, Venezuelans, Cubans, or Iranians, is it?

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]

😂 😂 😂

why would europe be more worried about an ethnofascist imperialist army marching towards them more than any other conflict in the world?

holy shit

why are people so entitled and clueless, and think when they speak on a topic avoiding the most obvious fucking things about it, they do anything other than embarrass themselves?

alexandre: do you understand the difference between literal life and death, and a purity morality play going on in your head?

dunno about you, but if a larger empire were bombing and genociding plenty of peoples around my continent, I'd be more worried about it than about helping it disturb and weaken its also-imperialistic opponents.

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]

Should a Pole be more invested in a fight against Russia? Or a fight against Israel or USA?

Nevermind it's not a contest. We're allowed to be more invested in one fight or another, without it meaning we don't care about another fight. That's a lying manipulative way of approaching the topic

If I feed the homeless as my primary effort and someone goes "so that means you don't care about imperialism?" this just means I'm dealing with a pathetic smearmongering edgelord

being both Latin-American and an Earthling, I'd have to say they should be far more worried about the USA than about any other imperial power

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]

yes, as a brazilian, absolutely, you should be more worried about the USA

and a pole should be more worried about russia

right?

🤣 🤣 🤣

what is even your point alexandre?

it seems like you're arguing yourself into agreeing with me

you asked about "should." I get it that Poles have had a lot more negative experience with Russia than with the US, and that presumably twists their perceptions as to the riskier threats. I also get that I've had a lot more negative experiences with the US than with Russia in my lifetime, which twists mine the other way.

but objectively, Russia seems to have a hard time keeping up with a single war against a neighbor country, while the US initiates and maintains multiple wars at once all over the world, besides meddling with multiple other countries. even if Russia mainland is much closer to Poland, US military bases are even closer.

if I were European, I wouldn't be spending resources and weakening myself by supporting a fight against Russia, because I might need them to fend off the US. Ukrainians would be left to their own bad luck, and that would hurt because I'm 50% Ukrainian blood, but we're speaking of strategies and countries' interests here. I'd probably be allying with Russia and China and Brazil and India to try to mount a credible balance against the dangerously decadent but still by far strongest empire. those may not be the greatest and most trustworthy partners, but then, the US aren't either.

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected]

@lxo @randahl @genziana @benroyce

Martijn Vos Mar 4

That doesn't change the fact that Russia is a direct threat, is constantly talking about war with Europe, is currently invading a neighbour, and has a long and ugly history of invading and oppressing European countries. For all the shit the US has pulled, at least they've never invaded an ally like Russia has.

Although Trump got close. His threats to invade Greenland and Canada were taken incredibly seriously, and several European countries immediately sent troops to Greenland to make clear we do intend to defend it. Immense diplomatic effort has gone into dissuading Trump and keeping the US from siding with Russia. This is not something Europeans take lightly, although this betrayal did take us by surprise.

But none of that is an excuse to stop supporting Ukraine. A Europe with an independent Ukraine is significantly stronger than one without. Europe should do more to help Ukraine, exactly to ward off more aggressors. Putin and Trump only believe in force, so Europe should show strength, and liberating Ukraine would be the best way to do that.

And in case you hadn't noticed, Europe has massively ramped up its military investments, and in European, not American weapon systems, exactly to become less dependent on and more independent from the US.

I would love to ally with India and Brazil, but there's no chance in hell that Europe would ally with Putin. The fact that you even dare to suggest that, shows you have no clue about what's going on.

both Russia an US are actual threats to the EU, though I'm not so sure how much of the former is a product of propaganda from the latter

gotta keep in mind that Trump's US has no allies

when you find two opposing bullies, one of the silliest things one can do is to engage one of them at the stronger one's request, get yourself tired, and then, whether you defeat the first one, you'll be defeated by the other, even if the other pretended to be friends with you. they're only interested in friendship in as much as you serve them.

the smarter way to defeat both bullies is to maneuver so that they fight each other. meanwhile, ally with the other victims. even other weaker bullies. even if they bullied you before. after you deal with the stronger bully, you turn to the weaker ones.

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]

@lxo @randahl @benroyce @genziana

Martijn Vos Mar 4

I'm totally aware that the US is also a threat. Nobody here is denying that. Trump has shown several times that he's eager to side with Russia against Europe. He's tried several times to pressure Ukraine into surrender.

The US is not asking us to fight for Ukraine, Ukraine is. And the people of Europe are. Do you know how many Ukrainian flags are flying in windows and balconies in western Europe? The European people are far more pro-Ukraine than their governments.

The simple fact is that a Europe that liberates Ukraine will be far stronger than a Europe that sits idly by the sidelines while Russia gobbles up one neighbour after another. It's obvious to anyone that the best place to stop Russian aggression is in Ukraine.

(I'm really curious what the next spin from your propaganda playbook will be.)

@mcv @randahl @lxo @genziana

where do these people come from who work so earnestly and so hard to defend very cheap flimsy lying narratives from the kremlin?

i don't understand it

it's baffling

they feel invested and they've chosen to invest in the stupidest lies from the kremlin playbook

the only think i can conclude is that social media disinfo is the most potent cognitive rat poison ever invented by humankind

Alexandre Oliva

propaganda narratives come from all sides. they're useful, because they usually carry in them ground kernels of truth, of yearnings, of beliefs, and so one can often extract information by identifying what's common among the conflicting narratives, and discarding the rest as predictable wishful lies

dismissing entirely any one side's narratives is also a propaganda narrative, alas, but people who are immersed in it may have extra difficulty in identifying it as such, just as we can't easily identify air, or fish can't easily identify the water around them

I, being somewhat distant from them all, and being the kind of autistic person who's insensitive to the most common kinds of propaganda, feel at a vantage point to detect and contrast these made-up narratives. alas, it's usually no more than an interesting puzzle, because I'm powerless to drive change based on my inferences, and the people who are immersed in the seas of propaganda often have a hard time as much as listening to theories that deviate from the ground premises instilled by multi-layered propaganda perceived as universal unquestionable beliefs within those bubbles.

rat poison is child play in comparison 😞

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]

@lxo @mcv @randahl @genziana

alexandre: if a country invades another hellbent on genocide, you condemn them, and you reject their lies in defense of their poor behavior. a wife beater will whine all sorts of excuses: "she made me beat her." who gives a fuck about his self-serving crocodile tears narrative? he beat his wife: condemn him. it's called morality, and you are abandoning it, so you're a sick disgusting person

but when a country provokes a war between others, then it's all right, eh?

and then, as I reason to reverse engineer and figure out their strategies and motivations, I'm somehow abandoning morality? it's not me who's dismissing reproachable behaviors here.

CC: @[email protected] @[email protected] @[email protected]

@lxo @mcv @randahl @genziana

"when a country provokes a war between others"

it's so delusional

russia chose to invade you ukraine you stupid fuck. no one else bears responsibility for that except russia

yes: you are abandoning morality

i am frustrated with you right now. so if i take a glass and smash it on your face do we say "ben was frustrated with alexandre" and act like that's the issue? no, the issue is that i chose to deal with my frustration with violence. that's 100% my fault

@lxo @randahl @genziana @benroyce

Martijn Vos Mar 4

There is a massive, massive difference between facts and lies. You're suggestion that it's all the same is post-truth propaganda. Very popular in the age of Trump, but it has no place here. You may want to believe that your feelings trump facts, but they don't.

dismissing entirely any one side's narratives is also a propaganda narrative

Debunking lies is something else, though. And your narrative hangs together from easily debunked lies.

You can try to weasel your way out of that, but that's not going to work here.

I, being somewhat distant from them all, and being the kind of autistic person who's insensitive to the most common kinds of propaganda, feel at a vantage point to detect and contrast these made-up narratives.

Ha, you're the one making up these narratives. Either you're paid to spread Kremlin propaganda, or you fell for it. You're not insensitive to it at all; you're gullible to it. You lack critical thinking.

Let me show you some examples of what you said:

both Russia an US are actual threats to the EU, though I'm not so sure how much of the former is a product of propaganda from the latter

You're suggesting (though cowardly not literally claiming) that the reason Russia wants to control eastern Europe is because of US propaganda. That makes no sense, but is also blatantly untrue. It's Russia itself that's openly beating the war drum, and being explicit about wanting to control other countries. And that's nothing new; it was like that even before the US existed.

the smarter way to defeat both bullies is to maneuver so that they fight each other. meanwhile, ally with the other victims. even other weaker bullies. even if they bullied you before. after you deal with the stronger bully, you turn to the weaker ones.

This is actually exactly what Europe is doing: keeping the US from bullying Europe and opposed to Russia. And Europe allies with other victims of Russian bullying, like Ukraine.

But what you're trying to suggest here is that Europe should ally with Russia against the US. You know very well that Europe is not that stupid. Russia has a history of bullying and attacking its allies. You're not safe as Russia's ally. You're not even safe as Russia's vassal. Russia is openly hostile to Europe. The only situation in which you can ally with a country like that, is when you're in an existential war against a third power that's invading you both, as was the case in WW2. But that alliance came at the very steep cost of sacrificing eastern Europe to Russian opression. Never again.

surely you're not implying that the West's motives to provoke and remain in this conflict are pure

Here you're implying that the West provoked this war. That is blatantly untrue. The West could have done more to dissuade Putin by hard guarantees to defend Ukraine. They failed to do that, but that's not the same as provoking.

Or this piece of bullshit:

if I were European, I wouldn't be spending resources and weakening myself by supporting a fight against Russia, because I might need them to fend off the US. Ukrainians would be left to their own bad luck, and that would hurt because I'm 50% Ukrainian blood, but we're speaking of strategies and countries' interests here. I'd probably be allying with Russia and China and Brazil and India to try to mount a credible balance against the dangerously decadent but still by far strongest empire. those may not be the greatest and most trustworthy partners, but then, the US aren't either.

You imply that Europe is weakening itself by helping Ukraine (it's not), or that it makes us vulnerable to US aggression (unimaginable before Trump, but we were already vulnerable and are actually strengthening ourselves by getting more organised without the US), that we should ally with Russia (a ludicrous suggestion; they are our primary enemy, and not interested in allies, only in vassals). And besides, NATO without the US is already the second strongest military in the world. The only thing we need is to get more organised, to integrate our military, and put up a united front. An alliance with Russia accomplishes none of those things, but rather the opposite.

Every argument you make comes down to suggesting that Europe should abandon Ukraine and support Russia, despite their aggression against European countries.

In the late 1990s, it actually did look like Russia might become our ally. The Cold War was over, Russia participated in a NATO exercise, the US and Russia, together with many other countries, were cooperating on the ISS. And then Putin came to power, and made it clear he didn't respect European countries as equals. Europe still desperately tried to treat Russia as an equal trading partner, even after their invasion of Crimea and Donbas (which should really have been a massive warning, but western Europe was naive). It only got us more hostility.

Our words against Putin are not propaganda, they're experience. You're a fool if you trust Putin.