Mastodawn

"The Fediverse today is dominated by microblogging clones."

@naturzukunft2026, 2026

https://fediforum.org/2026-03-growing-open-social-web/

... because Mastodon is what people use the most (really it's the only "microblogging" app, and only by default)

"... we need domain-specific applications that leverage ActivityPub’s full semantic potential — not just status updates, but recipes, events, reviews, collaborative documents ..."

We've had most of these for years. Mobilizon, NeoDB, NextCloud, etc.

(1/3)

#fediverse

FediForum | Growing the Open Social Web:<br>An Online Un-Workshop

FediForum

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FinchHaven sfba Feb 16

@strypey

Clicked through on that @ naturzukunft2026 link for some reason

"The spec is ActivityPub, but federation is unfortunately Mastodon."

#ActivityPub is a protocol

It requires some sort of implementation via software into some sort of distribution/app

Mastodon (for one) is only *one* distribution/app

There are others

These others may

--> or may not <--

"federate" with each other to varying degrees

They are all *different* and "varying" implementations of the ActivityPub protocol

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, but it sure seems to be...

cc @naturzukunft2026

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🫧 socialcoding..Feb 16

@FinchHaven @strypey

I do not think that @naturzukunft2026 misunderstands this.

There's a difference between #ActivityPub the protocol and #fediverse the on-the-wire reality, and in the latter #Mastodon is the post-facto interoperability leader.

For there to be interoperabiity in a particular domain there needs to be agreement on data formats and msg exchanges, and the specs don't provide full coverage nor clear guidance on this. Though #ActivityStreams has a section on use cases it was designed to handle, they aren't fully specified.

Of course it is perfectly fine, and highly encouraged to model a domain in the best possible way, but you won't be "part of the fediverse" until you implement enough of the post-facto Mastodon microblogging interop quirks.

We don't have a good ecosystem-level extension approach, and the #FEP constitutes a best-effort. A bandaid that allows to present a best-practice in hopes it gets further adoption.

I'm not sure that JSON-LD offers solace though.

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Strypey Mar 2

@smallcircles
> I'm not sure that JSON-LD offers solace though

My impression is that JSON-LD is a Semantic Web implementation of JSON. As such, it enables a lot more machine-readable information to be packaged along with data.

IIRR the Semantic Web was shouldered aside by "Web 2.0" (AJAX, pseudo-REST, etc), with the idea that we'd all use platforms in place of richer semantics. We all know how that turned out ; )

@FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 2

@strypey @FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

I was around at the time, and a long-time proponent for more linked data uptake in general in IT.

I don't think saying SW was shouldered aside is a fair assessment. As hype cycles come and go as these windows where a technology must prove itself, semantic web had one of the bigger cycles. It overpromised, underdelivered. And at the same time XML got overused where it shouldn't, becoming ever more complex web of standards and de-facto. XML fell in the grasp of corporations, pushing expensive Enterprise service buses, etc. There was a craving for simplicity to create sites and basic webapps. And then along came JSON, and XML quickly fell out of favor. Along with SW, which never got a good tool and library support in the ecosystem.. and that is still true today.

Other than that SW in many areas is a solution seeking for a problem. Some areas see LD uptake. But aboveall the dev community ditched the tech. And they need much convincing to come back.

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Strypey Mar 3

You may be missing the forest for the trees.

@smallcircles
> XML got overused where it shouldn't, becoming ever more complex web of standards and de-facto. XML fell in the grasp of corporations ... And then along came JSON, and XML quickly fell out of favor. Along with SW

Me:
> My impression is that JSON-LD is a Semantic Web implementation of JSON

@FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 3

@strypey @FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

No, not overlooking the forest, but forgot the quote..

You:

> IIRR the Semantic Web was shouldered aside by "Web 2.0" (AJAX, pseudo-REST, etc), with the idea that we'd all use platforms in place of richer semantics. We all know how that turned out ; )

This is not how I remember it. Semantic Web wasn't "shouldered aside". At the time of the hype cycle the corporate world was full on board. It was more Semantic Web that spectacularly failed to deliver (against the expectations of the hype cycle) and in many areas was a solution in search of a problem. And pragmatic developers refusing to use something they felt was overengineered, and that coincided with the same feelings around XML which was overused in areas where it shouldn't.

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🫧 socialcoding..

@strypey @FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

For the sake of further clarity I should point to your starting post and this text:

> we need domain-specific applications that leverage ActivityPub’s full semantic potential

And remark that in my opinion and by observation, tapping the sign "Reminder: #ActivityPub is #JSONLD, folks!" isn't enough. Much more is needed than pointing to the #OpenStandards to win back developers minds to adopt #LinkedData. There is a high reluctance and resistance to adoption that must be overcome.

Referring again to that adoption chart I drafted the other day - which is about #SolidProject, but this is where LD is strong(est?) today - "build open standards, and they will come" isn't going so well. I hope that changes, as I have always been a fan of the *notion* of the semantic web. Yet in role of a technology decision maker, not ready to bet on it for a social networking environment.

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Sarven Capadisli Mar 3

@smallcircles @strypey @FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

Hi, author of some things here. I can assure you that that is more of that big bad "semantic web" stuff baked into #ActivityPub than there is to #SolidProject but people spin things as they want to for a narrative. That said, totally agree with you that do x and y will come is not enough. Folks conflate various variables or attempt to boil things down to a single perspective. The reality is far more strange and unpredictable.

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 4

@csarven @strypey @FinchHaven

Writing even more stuff, on microblogs that are about the worst choice of medium to discuss this. Which I mentioned 100 sticky notes above, or so, in fleety timeline history. But it is the comms channel of choice unfortunately.

Applications like yours, @naturzukunft2026, and ActivityPods and others are the ones that can inspire people to take an interest in the LD technology space again. Show what's possible.

If they decide to take the leap and experiment with LD then the next hurdles are existing tool and library support. And next they need to find help and guidance (hopefully) in the body of work and information left behind by others who came before them in similar kinds of solution designs. That is another pain point. They are used to webapps where a single search offers them a ton of frameworks to 'just get going' - which is an utter Rube Goldberg mess, but it is *their* mess where they feel comfortable, and if the framework fits, productive too.

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 4

@csarven @strypey @FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

My arguments of the last two weeks that are spread about the timeline, boils down that Coding is Social, and code alone and passion for tech isn't always enough. Esp. if one depends on an entire technology ecosystem in a pioneering stage of its technology adoption lifecycle, that should evolve along with them. And which evolves on the basis of chaotic grassroots social dynamics that no one is able to steer onto a healthy adoption path. There are wicked problems to overcome, and they are mostly social in nature. I took notes on this for the fediverse years ago, and these challenges are still the same to this day, haven't been tackled.

https://discuss.coding.social/t/major-challenges-for-the-fediverse/67

We have a successful fediverse now, but also one who has limited its application area, hemmed themselves in wrt the original 'promise' of AP. With the #ActivityPub API there's opportunity to make step in place, and get some of that back. And go LD route too.

https://social.coop/@smallcircles/116109447243110037

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 4

@csarven @strypey @FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

> Folks conflate various variables or attempt to boil things down to a single perspective. The reality is far more strange and unpredictable.

This is why I started Social coding commons and SX solution design methodology for evolving technology ecosystems in grassroots environments, such as the fediverse. The method is holistic, emergent and focused on evolution and sustainability. It even has a Pyramid of Perspectives model that acknowledges that we all are here for different reasons and with different needs and expectations that must be properly addressed to make us stay and collaborate furtively with others.

https://coding.social/blog/reimagine-social/#pyramid-of-perspective

I am not raising expectations that SX will ever be more than my hobby project, which it currently is since I can't sustain myself from it. But I find the social dynamics very fascinating and these provide the hedonic drivers that keep me motivated.

How We Reimagine the Social Web

We find novel ways to collaborate and create value together.

Social coding commons

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Strypey Mar 4

(1/?)

@smallcircles
> feelings around XML which was overused in areas where it shouldn't.

This is the trees.

> I have always been a fan of the *notion* of the semantic web

This is the forest.

I'm not arguing there wasn't a corporate hype cycle around that forest, clearly there was. Mostly based on shoehorning XML into inappropriate use cases, in the same way we've seen since with blockchains and now Trained #MOLEs.

@csarven
@FinchHaven @naturzukunft2026

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Strypey Mar 4

(2/?)

I get that this hype cycle and the limitations of XML *in particular* left a bad taste in people's mouths. But my point is that the *concept* of a Semantic Web was shouldered aside, in favour of the idea that we'd all use platforms, in place of richer, machine-readable semantics that allow decentralised networks to do smarter things with the data they transport.

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Strypey Mar 4

(3/3)

There was a brief corporate hype cycle around AP too, before it was shouldered aside in favour of BlueSky's approach. I can imagine a scenario 10-15 years hence, when BlueSky has long since enshittified, and people remember corporations trying to shoehorn AP into all sorts of inappropriate use cases to cash in on the funding opportunities opened up by that hype cycle.

Would it be fair for them to present that as evidence the concept of a fediverse is a failed idea, and a waste of time?

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 4

@strypey I am presenting no evidence, just observation, that there's deep reluctance to adopt linked data, and that that is not just overcome that easily. Other than that, I love the old XML days, the idea of Semantic web, and the AP fediverse.

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🫧 socialcoding..Mar 4

@strypey

Part of the issue may be that we all see forests, where there are still only just trees.