Mastodawn

Urrgh. Ok, I desperately need sleep, and I can't sleep until I get this off my chest. So here goes.

A couple of weeks back I posted a reply about what's effective in dealing with the problem of bigotry IMHO, based on nearly half a century of lived experience,;

https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/116038706291119626

I don't see myself as the font of all wisdom, and I have no issue with people disagreeing with me. Sometimes they even end up changing my mind (see my posts in the MeaCulpa hashtag).

(1/?)

#bigotry #bullying

Strypey (@[email protected])

(1/2) @[email protected] > You don't stop bigots being bigots. You make being a bigot socially costly. You make palling around with bigots unpopular with people who might otherwise associate with bigots This is cynical, fatalistic, and incredibly antisocial. For a start, your core premise is wrong. People can and do stop being bigoted. I've seen this myself. Daryl Davis has proven it many times. There are many other examples. @[email protected] @[email protected]

Mastodon - NZOSS

But what I got was dogpiled by a gang of self-righteous bullies. Parroting a bunch of thought-terminating clichés, and hurling bullshit accusations that had nothing to do with anything I actually said, or anything I've ever said, here or anywhere.

Life is too short to deal with that kind of networked idiocy. So I'm going to say this once, to anyone who thinks this is an acceptable way to carry on.

(2/?)

What if it was someone you care about, who you knew as a perfectly lovely person before they started hanging out on that dodgy gaming forum, or wherever they picked up the bigotry brainworms? What if it was your best friend since school, your sibling, your parent, your *child*?

Maybe then you'd think twice about whether it's good advice to tar and feather other human beings as bigots, and deny them all social contact with anyone not also pegged as a bigot?

(3/?)

If not maybe you're a fucking sociopath? Maybe you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, and think deeply about Nietzsche's famous quote about fighting monsters.

https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/112782360387794556

Maybe you need to seriously consider the possibility that you're in a cult? Telling people to cut off longstanding relationships with people who don't share the group ideology is what cults do. Because maintaining old relationships is how you keep perspective, and avoid getting sucked into cults.

(4/?)

Strypey (@[email protected])

One again, I think #FriedrichNietzsche's warning is timely here; "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you." (2/2) @[email protected]

Mastodon - NZOSS

Frances Lee wrote about being excommunicated from the "church of social justice" (see the link here https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/@strypey/110789459980665321). Lee was being polite, but let's call a spade a spade; what she's describing in her pieces on this topic is a cult. A 21st century networked cult, not mindslaves in a compound, but a cult all the same.

A cult that I refuse to conform to, or make any excuses for, just became it's ideology is a twisted parody of leftist and pro-diversity ideas I deeply believe in.

(5/?)

Strypey (@[email protected])

I'm a greenie and human rights activist, with loud opinions about tech policy. My overall political bent could be described as left-libertarian or anarchist (of a vaguely Chomskian/ Graeberian variety). As befits any rational humanist who advocates for human rights, I'm very socially liberal. But I'm also openly critical of much of the strategy and tactics of "identity politics", for reasons Frances Lee explains beautifully in the links here: https://hellofranceslee.com/excommunicate-me/ This annoys some people.

Mastodon - NZOSS

The identi-moonie cult has nothing to do with real world anti-bigotry or social justice work. It's the opposite; a crucial part of the conservative-to-fascist pipeline. So I say this to the cult members and their apologists and appeasers;

Stay out of my mentions with this bullshit. Or by all that is holy, I will verbally tear you several new arseholes. I will unleash all my fury with the Useful Idiots of the world on you, and I will enjoy every minute of it.

You have been warned.

(6/?)

Oh and in case it needs to be spelled out, as I said to the identi-moonies who dogpiled me as mentioned in the OP, I agree that nobody is obliged to educate bigots. If it's not safe for you to do that, or you simply choose not to spend your time that way, I respect that.

All I'm asking is that we stop publicly shaming people who maintain *pre-existing* relationships with people who've contracted bigot brainworms, and try to guide them back to sanity.

Surely that's not too much to ask?

(7/7)

"Steven Hassan developed the BITE Model© [Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional control] to describe cults’ specific methods to recruit and maintain control over people

...

Not every group or relationship uses every one of these. Some are universal such as deception (Information control), indoctrinating people to distrust critics and former members, or installing phobias to make people afraid of questioning or leaving."

https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/

#CultDynamics #BITE

@KarlHeinzHasliP

BITE Model of Authoritarian Control - Freedom of Mind Resource Center

Discover the foundational principles of psychological freedom with our BITE Model PDF. Dr. Steven Hassan's pioneering framework offers insights into controlling behaviors and thoughts. Download now to explore strategies for personal empowerment and understanding undue influence. Perfect for educators, counselors, and anyone seeking to reclaim their freedom of thought.

Freedom of Mind Resource Center

That's pretty fantastic, though it could remove that weird spectrum from the beginning of the article. Hate is unhealthy? Compassion is healthy? Nice sounding claims, but very... pollyannaish. Psychologically healthy is healthy?

But from page 2 onward it's great.

CC: @[email protected]

🏳️‍⚧️Mar 9

@strypey I mostly agree.

I think we can be overly prescriptive in either direction: whether we tell people to disassociate with anyone who disagrees on a particular issue, or to make friends with those who disagree with their existence. Room for nuance.

Simultaneously, there are cases where shunning *is* the appropriate response.

And if we choose not to shun, we need to educate; we've (white people) put up with racism for far too long, silence is no longer an option.
(1/2)

🏳️‍⚧️Mar 9

@wxhbxh @strypey (not accusing you of either extreme tbc)

There is a lot of ground between the acquaintance who makes an off-colour remark and the klansman, and for the social justice movement at large to cede all of that ground would be a tactical error.

But we also need to be willing to trust one another to determine our own level of comfort and make our own decisions about whose redemption we put energy towards.
(2/2)

🏳️‍⚧️Mar 9

@strypey I've also heard my share of deradicalisation stories where in reality it took both; being shunned to realise that there was a problem, and having patient friends willing to help them grow and change. (apologies for the mention spam, just came to mind)

@wxhbxh
> it took both; being shunned to realise that there was a problem, and having patient friends willing to help them grow and change

This is the point I got dogpiled and called a bigot for trying to make. If this was unusual, I wouldn't have made a fuss. But I've been treated like this, online *and* off, since the early noughties, if not longer. It's a serious problem.

> apologies for the mention spam, just came to mind

Have you seen my regular multi-post replies? 😆

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz Mar 3

@strypey A cult has to be a group first and foremost.
I think what you are describing is more of a phenomenon of reply-guys who are angry because something reminds them of something they only recently deconstructed about their own indoctrinated assholness.

Behind it though, there is a big question of what you socially do with latently violent privileged bigots as other privileged non-targets of said latent violence. Can't bring them along into any safe/public spaces, that's for sure.

Only societal future I can see there is to allow them to stay in virtual violence simulators until they are emotionally ready for the real world.

(1/?)

@KarlHeinzHasliP
> A cult has to be a group first and foremost

Who decided that? More importantly, how are you defining "group" here?

> I think what you are describing is more of a phenomenon of reply-guys

It's certainly that, but the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

(2/?)

@KarlHeinzHasliP
> there is a big question of what you socially do with latently violent privileged bigots

The radical solutions are to;

a) avoid essentialising. Bigotry, like drug addiction, is a set of beliefs and behaviours, not a kind of person

b) try to understand the many and varied reasons why a particular person might be manifesting bigotry in their behaviour. A small handful are irredeemable sociopaths. Most are vulnerable people with brainworms

(3/?)

c) construct and maintain a bigotry-to-ally pipeline that gives people a way out of social networks where bigotry is normalised and reasons to take it, that make sense from within their worldview

d) reduce recruitment into bigoted groups and networks, by hacking the conservative-to-fascist pipeline at every point of vulnerability we can find, and redirecting people into our bigotry-to-ally pipelines

(4/4)

Now before any identi-moonies turn up and I have to yell at them, nobody is obliged to do any of this work. I get that it's not always safe for everyone to do it, especially for in-person situations. All I'm asking is that people aren't shamed and ostracized for working on these strategies, defending them, or defending those who do.

Is that really too much to ask?

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz Mar 3

@strypey The definition? I mean show me one that does not refer to a group. I usually go by wikipedia...

@KarlHeinzHasliP you didn't answer the second part of the question, which was the more important one, and all this definition-lawyering is kind of missing the point. Don't you think?

A church is definitely a group, usually based around a specific building. But I don't remember this being what people objected to when Frances Lee wrote about the "church of social justice".

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz Mar 4

@strypey I never read or cared for Lee, and no, a church and a cult are not the same thing. What you are referring to is a world view or ideology. Cults are a pretty specific social phenomenon, also about abuse and total control of the leaders over followers, usually a lot of abuse. The Mormons are a cult, and so are the Jehovas Whitnesses and the Moonies. Can't point to a Social Justice Cult by name and members... because it's not a cult, just an ideology pursued by a bunch of individuals without the cult structures of total control.

@KarlHeinzHasliP
> I never read or cared for Lee

FYI Dismissing someone's ideas without having read them is not something to be proud of. It's a great example of what identi-moonies regularly do.

> it's not a cult, just an ideology pursued by a bunch of individuals without the cult structures of total control

Your definition of "cult" is stuck in the 1970s. A lot of water under the bridge in cult studies since then. See the link I shared about the BITE framework.

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz 3d ago

@strypey Well the moonies are a cult. They have a location where they isolate people and abuse children. Idk how many of them shitpost idpol in your feed, but... as long as they are moonies, they are definitely a cult.

@KarlHeinzHasliP just FYI, parroting your own debunked argument isn't very convincing. See ... entire thread for detailed explanations and references explaining why you're wring about by this.

We're done here, and you're Muted for a month for wasting space in my overflowing @mentions.

@strypey Well that escalated quickly. It usually does with those people.

You are right. One of the ways MAGA grew its base was to play friendly and accepting to people they disagree with. They may mock them behind their backs but they will engage, and gradually chip away at the other person's worldview.

The sort of people you were arguing with there are easy to mock, easy to hate, and easy to trigger and watch the show. That's how they fell from top of the world in 2020 to where they are now.

@mike805
> Well that escalated quickly. It usually does with those people

I know, right? From 'how to strategically reduce bigotry' to 'way to out yourself as a bigot' in a single ludicrous step. Fucking pod people.

> That's how they fell from top of the world in 2020 to where they are now

From your lips to my ears, my friend. Bang on.

@strypey Those "pod people" remind me way too much of either the Red Guards during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, or the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. If they had deadly force at their disposal, I think some of them would attempt the "Year Zero" thing here.

They often look absurd and hysterical. Underestimating them is a mistake. They are very dangerous, and people mock them at their peril. The pod people must never acquire state power.

@strypey Have you ever thought that maybe capital encourages the hysterical "woke mob" behavior with the specific intent to neutralize genuine "non-rich people" social change?

Looking at it from that point of view, in 2020 capital was facing a pretty strong challenge over economics and police violence.

It all turned into street theater and scamming (free houses for BLM elites, CHOP/CHAZ antics) and is now neutralized. And capital is back to enriching itself.

If that was the plan, it worked.

They remind me more of 12 year old kids who haven't considered social nuance and were raised in their own bubble where everything was black and white until they ran headlong into your post. The modern so-called "Red Guards" who are creating this naïveté are not the ones replying here.

But maybe I'm the naïve one here.

CC: @[email protected]

@cy
> The modern so-called "Red Guards" who are creating this naïveté are not the ones replying here

I lived in China for 2 years, and visited numerous places where there were plaques talking about how this or that had been restored, after being destroyed by Red Guards. Even the CCP can tolerate publicly admitting that the Cultural Revolution was a collective self-punching.

> maybe I'm the naïve one here

Always good to be open to that, but no, I think the comparison is bang on.