KMWoolMar 3
Pete Prodoehl 🍕
Hey kids, in the olden days you bought (instead of “rented”) software and it came in a box with a disc and it was yours to use forever!
Mar 3 at 1:31pmMona for iPhone
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3

Well, the “forever” part was tricky because it might break due to OS upgrades or computer architecture/chip changes.

But making a one-time purchase and using software 5 or 10 years was not unheard of.

I think I paid $500 for Photoshop and it came out to under $9 per month if I do the math right… that’s for 10 years of use.

If it’s still $20 per month for a subscription and you do 10 years that’s $2,400.

Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
Just like how my mortgage is less than tbe rent my (adult) children pay, renting is about never owning and always paying more.
Show threadadingbatponder  👾Mar 3

@rasterweb The disaster is one can be locked out of software you paid for if the internet is down or vendor's servers are down because you cannot authenticate that you have paid for the software. They do not even provide alternative authentication like a key. The software keeps needing re-authentication and it is not a one-off. It is like renting a house and not being able to open the door unless the telephone line is working and the landlord's answering machine is not full.

A total disaster.

Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@adingbatponder Yup! It didn’t use to be that way though. I do remember offline options to verify a license for some software.
Show threadMichael 🤨Mar 4
@rasterweb @adingbatponder I remember calling Microsoft on the phone to authenticate my copy of Windows 7 I think. Feels like a fever dream now
Show threadWesDymMar 3

@adingbatponder That is a scandal, for sure. There's no good reason that local authentication should not be available.

As I said elsewhere, I blame inadequate regulation. Vendors can be made to do this, if enough people push for it.

Show threadAlan BucknamMar 3
@rasterweb I still have my CS3-era Adobe software license serial numbers stored away in a note. Probably can’t run those on today’s hardware though. Sigh.
Show threadWesDymMar 3

@rasterweb The mortgage/rent comparison is popular, but I think probably faulty, because these are also very different cost/benefit structures. A tenant may pay more per m^2, but they're also not responsible for many things that a homeowner would be. And in nearly all cases, a flat with the same floorspace and amenitites as most private homes would demand much higher rent.

In my mind, the biggest difference is that renters cannot build equity.

/2

Show threadWesDymMar 3

@rasterweb 2/ I would liken software to being more like a personal vehicle, which you can buy, rent, or lease. Probably lease. A new car depreciates over time, no matter how well cared for. A leased car has aspects of both ownership or rental, but is replaced periodically.

But no one can build equity in software, no matter how you access it or for how long. There's no appreciation, no resale value, for anyone.

Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@wesdym How do you classify my model then, where I bought a 12 year old used car for cheap, paid it off in one year, and now own it forever. What is the software equivalent?
Show threadWesDymMar 3
@rasterweb You will not own it forever, and this is only an analogy, not an exact analogue, and I know that you're smart enough to know that.
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3

@wesdym If you want to be pedantic (which I am fine with):

I can own it for as long as like and/or as long as I am able.

Is that better?

So what is the software equivalency of this?

In the old days maybe it would have been getting a used computer with software already installed from the previous owner that you could still use?

Show threadWesDymMar 3

@rasterweb Ironic that you should accuse me of pedantry.

Take a powder. And try not to be this tiresome and immature in the future, okay?

Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3

@wesdym Apologies, I meant no insult. I am pedantic and hold no ill will towards others who are.

My mind is a little fuzzy from medication today so if I read things poorly please know I did not mean to do so.

Show threadJohn WilsonMar 4

@rasterweb mortgages are rent control for the middle class

(Or at least, that’s what they *were*)

Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
I should note that I was able to pay $500 for Photoshop only because I did a huge freelance project and made enough to buy a copy. I know that's not in everyone's budget though, and that's how they get you with the $20 a month (cheap!) cost of rental.
Show threadNo soy MarioMar 3
@rasterweb Companies like JetBrains have a license where your subscription gets you access to the upgrades. If you stop the subscription, your free to continue to use the version up to the point that your subscription ran out. This seems quite fair to me. Also gives incentives to the company to actually improve their product and not just do nothing collecting access-fees.
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@marijn LightBurn has/had a similar scheme, and I do appreciate that model over the “stop paying = lose all access” concept.
Show threadJer 🚲Mar 3
@rasterweb I have PS, Lightroom, and Aperture discs in a box somewhere. Dunno how far back of an OS I'd need to install to run them, or even if their network "activation" would work any more.
Show threadKauzMar 3
@jerzone @rasterweb from time to time I'm still using the last good Lightroom 4.4.1, that I've bought years ago. I run it in Wine, it works fine, no problem with activation after reinstall (I guess it doesn't call home when checking the licence key), so I don't expect it to break ever.
Show threadWesDymMar 3

@rasterweb My own sense is that how, why, and how often essential support software or hardware is upgraded has been accelerating. I'm not qualified to say if that's how it should or must be, but that seems to be how it is. Consequently, application software must also upgrade more frequently, and sometimes radically. Since those upgrades cost money for the company providing them, someone else must pay for them.

Again, I agree that this relationship can be and often is exploitative.

/2

Show threadWesDymMar 3

@rasterweb 2/ My sense is that's the general system of frequent upgrade is necessary, but too many vendors take advantage of that fact to squeeze end-users in various ways, because current regulation does not adequately discourage that.

Regulation needs beefing up, with a few unusually egregious vendors made examples for everyone. But the subscription model is otherwise a reasonable alternative to replacing software more frequently, as long as it doesn't become exploitative.

Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3

@wesdym If I look back 15 years ago I knew people who would skip a version of a large software purchase/upgrade, or they would purposely just not upgrade for as long as possible because the software did what they needed.

Often it was dealing with another user who had a newer version that forced an upgrade.

Show threadDaveKazMar 3
@rasterweb for what it’s worth Affinity apps I bought still run on my 2015 intel PowerBook.
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@fistfulofdave It just always seems that at some point you've got software, the OS, and hardware (chip architecture) and those three things all have to work together or the software no longer runs.
Show threadDaveKazMar 3
@rasterweb I think you won’t be able to run Intel apps on Apple Silicon after the new OS this year? Not that the 2015PB is running anything close to 26. I keep getting warnings for a couple apps and extensions on my M1.
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@fistfulofdave I got a (used) M series Mac a few months ago, but still have five Intel Macs running in my house right now. I’ll see how long I can hold out with them, though I’d guess at least one will be replaced this year.
Show threadDaveKazMar 3
@rasterweb I’ve got 2 Intel Macs and a M1 Max PB, my main computer. As for the Intel, one is my “server” (2015pb) the other (2008?) cheese grader Power Mac has no work for it.
Show threadDaveKazMar 3
@rasterweb I get a new machine when the OS isn’t supported and move the old machine to be the server. Hopefully getting the M1 Max gets me a few more years of updates than a regular M1.
Show threadapgarciaMar 3
@rasterweb lol you would go to a place called the mall and visit a store called Babbage's...
Show threadMichel PatriceMar 3

@rasterweb

And in the good old days, you bought magazines that came with a bonus disk containing a whole operating system along a bunch of softwares that were yours to use forever.

Show threadMichel PatriceMar 3

@rasterweb

I have a pile of these disks on my bookshelves, my girlfriend thinks that it is a waste of space and asks why I’m keeping these. I don’t need these, I can download whatever I want.

I keep these because it is so cool.

Pieces of long gone era that I have known.

Show threadMorten Juhl-JohansenMar 3
@MichelPatrice @rasterweb I held on to my SuseLinux 9.1 Personal box set longer than anyone could have a use for...
Show threadWesDymMar 3

@MichelPatrice There's rarely any 'forever' when it comes to any software.

I actually have the very first Ubuntu release, and it definitely won't run on anything I have now.

Show threadMichel PatriceMar 3

@wesdym

I know, but you can still use Ubuntu now.

The very first? It is so cool. How old are you?

Show threadWesDymMar 3
@MichelPatrice I can use something CALLED Ubuntu, and I do. But it has little in common with the first one I used. Some nuggets of the kernel I'm sure are the same or very similar. But it would be impossible to patch the original enough to get it working on anything I'm using now. Canonical themselves have said so.
Show threadMichel PatriceMar 3

@wesdym

Yes, I understand all this.

But can find cool to have an old (now useless) Ubuntu disk from back in the days?

And can we just not tell my girlfriend that this pile of old disks is now useless?

Show threadWesDymMar 3

@MichelPatrice Sure. I still have it myself.

I wouldn't necessarily call it 'useless', either. You could in theory run it in VM, and that could be cool.

Show threadAshe Dryden 🙆🏼‍♀️🐈🐈‍⬛Mar 3
@rasterweb “what’s a disc grandpa!”
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@Ashedryden It’s like a Micro SD card, but bigger… but also smaller, in a way…
Show threadWesDymMar 3

@rasterweb Worthwhile sentiment, but misleading argument.

Software in a fixed (non-updating) state always becomes obsolete. In the past, you had to buy new software at some point.

The business models have changed, but the underlying reality has not. You cannot run MS Office 98 on anything anyone's using right now.

Modern subscription models are indeed often exploitative, and yes, that's a scandal. But that doesn't make the concept wrong or bad, or invalidate the reasons why.

Show threadphobos_UACMar 3
@rasterweb very true, i was once kid fearing dearly about my floppy disks but they were mine. Look at the gaming community - what I see is people now (even my age) dont even understand they do not own the game but they own the right to play the game (apart from GOG) and that this right can be revoked at any time and with the "always online" service, you are at the mercy of those who "rent" you the titles.
Show threadCopy Moon Joy 🌕❤️Mar 3
@rasterweb SAAS is a scam and I refuse to subscribe to any of it. I'll go without before they get any rent money out of me.
Show threadEdward L PlattMar 3
@rasterweb It's another version of the Sam Vimes boots theory of economic unfairness
Show threadxchangeeeMar 3
@rasterweb wait a sec! in the olden days I downloaded (instead of "rented") ~100 rar files from 3 different free file hosters and then after unzipping it I launched an unsigned executable that came with badass custom UI and 8 bit music and I didnt even had to pay for Photoshop
Show threaddnparadiceMar 3
@rasterweb if only the picture was not of Adobe 🤮
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@dnparadice Hey, it was from 15 years ago! I started using Photoshop at version 1.0.7 back in the early 1990s and I search quite some time for a replacement. Since I used it for professional publishing work it took a long time to find an alternative that worked for me.
Show threaddnparadiceMar 3
@rasterweb Yea, no one knew how bad they were going to turn out back then
Show threadPete Prodoehl 🍕Mar 3
@dnparadice I started out in magazine publishing in the 1990s and Adobe sold good software for that industry. They didn't have a forever rental scheme with monthly payments.