JA Westenberg
"The free market will sort it out" the free market sorted out child labour by saying yes please and we had to pass a law. That's how the free market sorts things out.
Feb 27 at 1:04amTypefully
Show threadLady of Mystery and ScienceFeb 27
@Daojoan
Yeah, everyone thinks the β€œfree market” fixes things, but
1. It doesn’t fix everything
2. Sometimes it takes centuries to get fixed
Show threadNuwagaba GiftFeb 27
@demi
If it doesn't fix everything, how then is it important?
Show threadusmu πŸ‹πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆπŸ€ŸFeb 28
@nuwagaba2 @demi
Because it is a mechanism that strenghtens the position of people with money and no concern for those who do not by making them more money. So if you're one of them, you want to keep it.We're living in a capitalist society where more money means more power, so they have the power to make it important, even if it creates problems for others. Problems they themselves have money to deal with.
Show threadNuwagaba GiftFeb 28
@usmu
This is the system we're living in which makes people without money worthless and those with money do whatever is possible to keep others poor in order to have more power. Should we struggle to change the system, to live comfortably in it?
Show threadusmu πŸ‹πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆπŸ€ŸFeb 28
@nuwagaba2 Yes, there's enough for everybody, so everybody should have enough.
Show threadNuwagaba GiftFeb 28
@usmu
You're right. There's enough for everyone that's why our efforts is needed to have everyone get enough. Can i share with you about my project?
Show threadusmu πŸ‹πŸ³οΈβ€πŸŒˆπŸ€ŸFeb 28
@nuwagaba2 I'v checked uour profile and saw your toots about the project. I will check it out further when I have time later today.
Show threadNuwagaba GiftFeb 28

@usmu
Thanks so much for your concern. I have strong faith that my connections with will will lead to something great. If you get time, shall we have a video chat?

https://gofund.me/62baff09f

Donate to Buy land and provide food to the needy, organized by Jozsef Vass

Hi, my name is Jozsef and after a successful fundraising for a Kenyan children inst… Jozsef Vass needs your support for Buy land and provide food to the needy

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Show threadWorikFeb 28

@usmu @nuwagaba2 @demi I dissent

"Free markets" work well when all participants have equal access to information, can come and go and are protected from fraudsters (a role for the state - fraudsters are rare but frequently encounted unless hunted and disabled)

Markets do not make plans

Markets only act in the short term

Those of us who buy and sell trinkets on platforms like Trade Me get an appreciation of Markets

Those of us locked out of decent housing get an entirely different view

Show threadNuwagaba GiftFeb 28
@worik
What's the best way of protecting people against fraudsters?
Show threadWorikFeb 28
@nuwagaba2 In the context of a state, and a mixed economy, prosecution
Show threadKalshannFeb 27
@Daojoan
Slavery; genocide; lethal pollution; zero safety concerns; zero privacy; toxic ingredients; unsafe work environments; wage theft; and on and on...
Show threadTaylor SmithFeb 27
@Daojoan β€œThe market” lit the Cuyahoga River on fire ... 14 times!
Show threaddryadFeb 27
@Daojoan Yep - the free market is, to put it mildly, sociopathic much of time. It has its uses (for some things), but needs appropriate fettering.
Show threadestelleFeb 27
@Daojoan getting into the specifics of how the labor laws were passed, you see further how the free market operates in practice,
Show threadkauerFeb 27

@Daojoan "if the free market was really free, General Motors would be selling crack cocaine"

- Michael Moor (approximately)

Show threadGhostOnTheHalfShellFeb 27

@Daojoan

A large sledgehammer makes it behave well

Show threadJoe HeafnerFeb 27
@Daojoan @blogdiva Thbbbbt. Behind every "free" market there are people manipulating it to their advantage. There are no exceptions.
Show threadtuban_muzuruFeb 27

@Daojoan

The more risk is involved in a transaction, the more regulation is required, both from within and without.

The "Free" Market is a glib lie. We want a Fair Market.

Show threadxs4me2Feb 27

@Daojoan

Neoliberal capitalism only cares about profit. It is a race to the bottom where in the end winner takes all. Humans are not even part of the equation, neither is wellbeing…
The model is wrong.

Show threadSehar IrfanFeb 27
@xs4me2 @Daojoan agreed
Show threadThe ol' tealeg 🐑Feb 27

@Daojoan β€œfree markets” are a myth in any case. There are all sorts of constraints on any market, only some of which are intentional.

The legal constraints we do or don’t choose to apply reflect the morality of those in power, and power is certainly not brokered in a β€œfree market”.

Show threadLichoFeb 27
@Daojoan as much as I agree with the sentiment, I think it should be directed at capitalism not at free market. Free market existed way before capitalism. Capitalism is the privilege given to the owning class. Equating The two (capitalism and free market) is propaganda. The free market without privilege looks like a farmers market, like a bazaar, not like a factory or Wall Street.
Show threadDΕΊwiedziuFeb 27

@licho
Even if the equation is propaganda it's a capitalist one.

@Daojoan

Show threadLichoFeb 27
@dzwiedziu yes, It was my default. To clarify - it's a capitalist propaganda. They want to be associated with freedom. They try to disassociate themselves from power saying "crony capitalism". But there's no "non-crony capitalism". @Daojoan
Show threadDwampre ScorrigankFeb 27
@Daojoan Free market economics as a concept is inherently an evolution-worshipping theory. The idea that the market simply naturally grows into the best shape as long as we don't ever interfere in it is essentially saying we trust the processes of evolution to always produce "best". When TARP was in the news I saw explicit references to evolutionary processes – namely, that bailouts would support weak businesses that "should" be culled out by natural selection (not that I agree with TARP per se)
Show threadDwampre ScorrigankFeb 27
(it's also inherently reliant on not understanding evolution of course. I think we should teach evolution in non-biological systems, calling it something other than "evolution", in schools, so people can have the background to understand what a joke free-market economics is on a macro scale while keeping it under the radar of evangelicals)
Show threadBiggles 20X6!Feb 27

@Dwampre_Scorrigank "free markets" in economic parlance means something completely different to the way neoliberal and libertarians use it.

It means

'no barriers to entry it exit, or to trade/transactions', like tariffs or imperfect information or monopoly market power or barriers to market like subsidies.

Not

'No fucken rules, yeeiiw! Who wants to buy these kidneys I just acquired?', or 'stick em in a cage with knives and we'll give the job to the survivor'.

Markets must be regulated if they are to act as 'free markets', because the 'free market' model takes centuries to reach equilibrium on its own.

Show threadDwampre ScorrigankFeb 27
Thanks for that definition. To clarify I mean to argue against it as it's used in political propaganda for laissez-faire capitalism, and against expecting arbitrary desirable externalities significantly outside the scope of any particular reduction (or increase for that matter) in interventionism (absent solid evidence that it has that effect).
Show threadDwampre Scorrigank3d ago
The concept of evolution-worship, or at least excessive trust in evolution, can be extended to other ideologies as well. Essentially: as long as we fix this one thing, everything else will work itself out. Of course, it's not wrong to focus your efforts on whatever your job is in fixing the system, and prioritize primary fixes that enable other fixes. But make sure you don't assume those primary fixes are the *only* thing that needs assessment, repair, and maintenance. Problems are not simple.
Show threadJuan PerΒ’ent,πŸ‡²πŸ‡½ πŸ‰,πŸ‡»πŸ‡ͺFeb 27
@Daojoan But the Dow is at 50,000 !
Show threadLorraine LeeFeb 27
@Daojoan That's why I favor a non-market approach to things.
Show threadAnton SherwoodFeb 27
@Daojoan Child labor was already becoming obsolete (except on farms) when it was banned (except on farms).
Show threadAdeptVeritatisFeb 27

@Daojoan

There is a clear reason for that.

Markets are formed by rules. Without rules there is no market, just a bunch of traders.

A market is a place, where people meet to exchange work, goods and values. Like a classical flee market or local farmers market.

Show threadAdeptVeritatisFeb 27

@Daojoan

This place is owned by someone. The owners are often not the ones, who manage the market.
The market manager establishes the rules (Which can't be against the will of the owner.)
And the merchants will not be encouraged or very active, if the rules are shitty for them.

The markets of our national economies are owned by the sovereign, us.
But the rules are made by the legislation.

Before rules, there were only two people, meeting and exchanging things, they agree on.

Show threadAdeptVeritatisFeb 27

@Daojoan

But on a market, you are forced to use the units of a certain payment system (money), use calibrated weights, need to put price tags on goods and so on.
You are not allowed to put cheap stones on the bottom and only some apples on top.

Without rules, ancient and especially modern markets collapse quickly.
The same applies to European single market. The place is just much bigger than a traditional flee market.

You want to sell something here? Stick to the rules!

Show threadAdeptVeritatisFeb 27

@Daojoan

Have you ever seen a market manager of a flee market? Walking around proudly like a boss.

Don't try to put your booth there without asking and paying the fee.

You will be kicked out of the market in no time.
And they won't be friendly.

Show threadderptronFeb 27

@Daojoan In "Assholes: A Theory" the author spends a chapter or two on what he calls "asshole capitalism".

He differentiates a market that is regulated to be free (you don't just get that) from unregulated, "asshole capitalism" where its just about who's the biggest asshole who can most effectively abuse the market and there being no laws to stop them.

Show threadRobin BartonFeb 27
@Daojoan Very true
Show threadπŸ₯‘ Yours Truly! Unruly πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦πŸŒ»Feb 28

@Daojoan

There is no such thing as a free market, no invisible hand, just the filthy rich given free reign to steal without any tax, visible or invisible.

Show threadGhostOnTheHalfShell5d ago

@Daojoan

The free market sorted it out with guillotines and torches