David Scott MoyerOct 23

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/23/opinion/no-kings-trump-democrats.html

#NoKings #DavidBrooks #EJDionneJr #RobertSiegel #NoamComsky #OccupyWallStreet #NYT

My response:

Show threadFreekie

@farbel As for vision, my suggestion would be to have a look at what's going on with #solarpunk , however their scope is wider.

As for me, I am interested in our money system and it's impact and also in complementary and alternative money systems and their possibilities, maybe also for housing.

As for housing, I would not be surprised if we would come to live in self-supporting communities, rather then in cities.
Investers will then of course have already sold their empty houses 🤭

Feb 22 at 12:40pmWeb
Show threadDavid Scott MoyerFeb 22
@fdriesenaar wow, this was a while back! Anyway, what i am referring to is not the ideal ends such as those you mention, but the real world means to those ends. You need a battle plan, you can't just skip to the victory.
Show threadFreekieFeb 22

@farbel Thanks for the reactions and as for me, the ideal ends could be the 'target on the horizon' for the battle plan or plans and my impression is that #solarpunk can also prove to be helpful there.

However, to me: step one of the battle plan is get all hands on deck, to get all of us to focus on our common future and then start working on a real battle plan, to work towards a sustainable world.

Show threadFreekieFeb 22

@farbel As for a battle plan, maybe we don't need one, take for example the upcoming market for #mortgagefree solar powered #offgrid
mobile #tinyhouses , which reduces the footprint and also decreases the dependence on fiat money and reducing the need to partake in this life-unfriendly economy.

I am a newcomer in this field, but I wonder whether there are also already self supporting tiny home communities with their own currencies...🧐

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22

You know, I'm thinking you're right about that, @fdriesenaar . "As for housing, I would not be surprised if we would come to live in self-supporting communities, rather then in cities."

cc: @farbel

#SolarPunkSunday

Show threadDavid Scott MoyerFeb 22
@DoomsdaysCW @fdriesenaar If we spread 10 billion people across the planet in small communities, where is the food grown? There is less than half an acre of arable land per person on the planet.
Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22

Good point. Obviously, those communities would have to have some population density. But perhaps those *cities* wouldn't be "concrete monstrocities," but places were folks would grow their own food -- balcony gardens, rooftop gardens, indoor greenhouses, food forests, etc. @farbel .

@fdriesenaar

#SolarPunkSunday

Show threadDavid Scott MoyerFeb 22
@DoomsdaysCW @fdriesenaar I might posit that cities as they exist now could be self-sustaining, with vertical agriculture and rooftoop gardens.
Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
Exactly, @farbel ! Becoming self-sufficient and not relying on long-distance transport of food is so essential (imho)! @fdriesenaar
Show threadiweinFeb 22

@farbel
I hope that you don't mind me adding to the thread. I wrote about this recently and I think your .5 acre assumption is more constraining than reality.

There are three reasons to be more optimistic I think:

1. there's more agricultural land than arable land, which we can use much more effciently (˜x5),
2. there's a lot of surfaces we can use (>x2)
3. a hectare is two acres (x2)

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

https://ourworldindata.org/land-use

@DoomsdaysCW @fdriesenaar

Show threadiweinFeb 22

@farbel
that brings us to a sustiainable ~80 billion #solarpunk vegans or so.

Then if we really go sci-fi, we could use the oceans for floating farms and add another 200M km² of useful surface to the mix before we need any investments to go to mars.

over 250 billion people could have a decent meal on this wonderful planet before we need to worry about overpopulation really.

@DoomsdaysCW @fdriesenaar

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
I'm not sure if everyone can/should be vegan -- but anyone who isn't should at least cut down drastically on their meat consumption. Make it a special occasion, not an everyday occurrence. @iwein @farbel @fdriesenaar
Show threadiweinFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW @farbel @fdriesenaar

yeah exactly, I'm not here to argue about the ethics, but it is clear that if we cut animal protein consumption in half, we can almost double the nutrition value of the same area of land.

and luckily farming systems that are nicer to animals are also more productive, so there's plenty of room for more ethical behavior there.

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
Yeah, I'm one of those folks whose digestive system can't handle a lot of beans, @iwein . I've been reading Sean Sherman's "The Indigenous Kitchen," and also researching the benefits of goats versus cows. I've switched over to goat milk and cheese, and encourage those who have access (and who can't handle soy or alternatives) to do the same. @farbel @fdriesenaar
Show threadiweinFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW
As I said, I'm not here to lecture on the ethics, but i'm pretty sure that there are plenty of other options than industrial animal cruelty or beans.

I like for example the work Those Vegan Cowboys are doing along these lines (even though very technical/industrial, they do address both the ethical and sustainability problem in a fair and reasonable way)

@farbel @fdriesenaar

Show threadTaran RampersadFeb 22

@iwein @DoomsdaysCW @farbel @fdriesenaar I think it's fair to say that in the United States protein is over-marketed too.

I'm not vegan (please don't hurt me!) but in the same token, I probably have eaten more animal protein than I have used in my lifetime.

There is a way to strike a balance, I think, and maybe the center needs to be better seen by everyone.

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
I agree with you, @knowprose . And having known folks who have tried to grown their own soybeans (myself included), I know that it is not easy to grow enough to even make one block of tofu. If we want to be more self-sustaining, I think we need to be less fussy about food sources. Like even consider insects (wichety grubs are tasty and nutritious, for example). I'm not crazy about lab-grown meat though. There's a lot we don't know about how life is defined, and, well, having taken lives for food, I know it is not something that should be taken lightly, and done with as much respect as possible. Not in a factory.
Show threadTaran RampersadFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW I think, literally, everything is on the table.

Tracing my own dietary adventures over 54 years is a marvelous study in hardening arteries. I have references!

Growing up in the 70s in Ohio and Wisconsin, a steak dinner was the thing. It is in most of the world (except, notably, India). Now, after a heart attack, my diet has varied because I have, on my own, tried to do better. My doctor didn't tell me to.

My experience is anecdotal, but I'm certain I am not alone.

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
Oh yeah. Steak dinner, fast-food hamburgers. And daily even! The 70s was all about meat and potatoes, that's for sure, @knowprose ! I remember I tried to live on just fruit and nuts, and my grandmother looked at me like I was crazy. I've tried to eat a varied diet, though cheese is my weakness. And I'm sorry you had a heart attack, but glad that you are eating a more varied diet on your own! Hopefully, you will be on the mend. 🙂
Show threadTaran RampersadFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW Meh. the only people excited by my condition are the doctors. I take joy in breathing free and spending my time doing things I love.

My diet didn't change because of diet or screaming of outraged people. It changed because I decided to change.

Telling people what to do makes them defensive. Cooking a tasty meal without browbeating is completely different. :)

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
@knowprose 🙂
Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
@knowprose I've spent time living in the Outback with Indigenous Australians, and also learned about wilderness survival from Native Americans and Native American-trained guides here in Maine. When you've worked up an appetite foraging for greens or gathering firewood, one appreciates some home-cooked grub (literally. lol)!
Show threadTaran RampersadFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW Concur.

An interesting thing to look at is the Pepper Pot, an indigenous 'dish' in Guyana/Suriname that everyone claims. I had some prepared in those areas in my wanders through South America.

Basically, whatever is gathered or hunted is thrown in the pot.

It's been bastardized. It is, simply put, "Cooking what you get with lots of seasoning".

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
@knowprose Heh. Sean Sherman has a few recipes like that. I saw one for rabbit stew in his cookbook.
Show threadTaran RampersadFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW Well, as a lifetime bachelor, it's been what I do with whatever I have on hand. Planning meals is something new. lol.

But basically, I cook what I have available. I just changed what I have available.

By changing that from the software engineer 'flat food' diet to... well, foods that aren't flat... 🤣

Show threadScriptFanix💍Feb 22
@DoomsdaysCW
2 meat based meals per day is in fact too much for one's health. One every other day is enough without having to brain about it. I guess meat once a day isn't too bad for the planet.
@iwein @farbel @fdriesenaar
Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
Hubby and I make meaty dishes (which includes fish) maybe a few times a month, and usually incorporate it as part of the main dish, not the main course. Now, dairy, on the other hand... Which is why I've been switching to goat-based dairy instead of cow-based. @ScriptFanix @iwein @farbel @fdriesenaar
Show threadScriptFanix💍Feb 22

@DoomsdaysCW
Goat and ewe dairy products are in fact healthier, cow milk is way too fatty for us big monkeys. My fiancée converted me to goat and ewe cheese yogurt, rice milk for cooking, meat or fish once a day.

And I'm all for switching to insects as a main source of proteins! That's also way more sustainable: warm-blooded beings waste tons of energy
@iwein @farbel @fdriesenaar

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
I wonder how buffalo milk fares, @ScriptFanix. And I haven't tried goat yogurt (or cottage cheese) yet (I might even try making my own). Also, as for our meaty meals, those usually last a few days (leftovers). The rest of the time, I eat frozen leftovers like veggie lasagnas or soups, and also make up a veggie-laden pizza once a week (two meals for me). Hubby likes store-bought Pad Thai and other quick vegetarian meals (I'd rather eat frozen leftovers, which I often do).
Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
@ScriptFanix Also, I discovered insect-eating accidentally. I bit into a chocolate cupcake that was loaded with ants, and didn't mind the taste (though the squirminess was a bit unnerving. Still is. I prefer my grubs roasted.)
Show threadFreekieFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW @ScriptFanix

Love your posts :)

I have a 6 person house hold we eat meat about 2 times a week, fish once, but meat mainly for the children, still growing. Cheese and yoghurt are eaten daily, so I think there is room for reducing our footprint there.
Thanks for your reminding me and your tips :)

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
Goats, buffalo, and deer-hunting (to reduce populations) are more sustainable than factory-raised cattle, pigs and chickens. @iwein @farbel @fdriesenaar
Show threadiweinFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW OK a little bit of ethics then… can't help myself I'm affraid.

I'm 100% on the side of the vegans on this one, even though I'm not going to fault anyone for making a different choice.

I will however object to profiting from it. That is exactly how buffalo were hunted almost to extinction at some point. We should really learn not to do that kind of shit before we say it's OK imho.

What native folks did was sustainable at times, but a chunk of capitalist meat never is.

Show threadPapyrusBrigade has movedFeb 22

@DoomsdaysCW I don't think cities in themselves are concrete monstrosities. It's the cars. Cars add the pollution, noise, heat, and alienation. Also parking lots. Soooo many parking lots. To the extent that an outsider might presume our car dependent suburbs exist primarily to store cars.

With better networks of active transportation and public transit (and concerted push back against oil/auto lobby), the massive amounts of public space set aside to store cars can be put to better use. Housing. Parks/playgrounds. Food. Living beings.

Show threadDoomsdaysCWFeb 22
I suppose it depends on the city, @PapyrusBrigade . There are parts of Boston that I adore, but those were brick tenements near green spaces (parks, community gardens, etc). All the crazy tall skyscrapers make me claustrophobic, and the traffic was maddening. But when I moved to Portland, Maine, I loved how walkable/bike-able it was (and still is). I could easily avoid the main roads to get from point A to B. Lots of bike and walking paths!