David Scott Moyerhttps://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/23/opinion/no-kings-trump-democrats.html
#NoKings #DavidBrooks #EJDionneJr #RobertSiegel #NoamComsky #OccupyWallStreet #NYT
My response:
Freekie@farbel As for vision, my suggestion would be to have a look at what's going on with #solarpunk , however their scope is wider.
As for me, I am interested in our money system and it's impact and also in complementary and alternative money systems and their possibilities, maybe also for housing.
As for housing, I would not be surprised if we would come to live in self-supporting communities, rather then in cities.
Investers will then of course have already sold their empty houses ðŸ¤
DoomsdaysCWYou know, I'm thinking you're right about that, @fdriesenaar . "As for housing, I would not be surprised if we would come to live in self-supporting communities, rather then in cities."
cc: @farbel
@DoomsdaysCW @fdriesenaar If we spread 10 billion people across the planet in small communities, where is the food grown? There is less than half an acre of arable land per person on the planet.
Good point. Obviously, those communities would have to have some population density. But perhaps those *cities* wouldn't be "concrete monstrocities," but places were folks would grow their own food -- balcony gardens, rooftop gardens, indoor greenhouses, food forests, etc. @farbel .
@DoomsdaysCW @fdriesenaar I might posit that cities as they exist now could be self-sustaining, with vertical agriculture and rooftoop gardens.
iwein@farbel
I hope that you don't mind me adding to the thread. I wrote about this recently and I think your .5 acre assumption is more constraining than reality.
There are three reasons to be more optimistic I think:
1. there's more agricultural land than arable land, which we can use much more effciently (Ëœx5),
2. there's a lot of surfaces we can use (>x2)
3. a hectare is two acres (x2)
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
@farbel
that brings us to a sustiainable ~80 billion #solarpunk vegans or so.
Then if we really go sci-fi, we could use the oceans for floating farms and add another 200M km² of useful surface to the mix before we need any investments to go to mars.
over 250 billion people could have a decent meal on this wonderful planet before we need to worry about overpopulation really.
I'm not sure if everyone can/should be vegan -- but anyone who isn't should at least cut down drastically on their meat consumption. Make it a special occasion, not an everyday occurrence. @iwein @farbel @fdriesenaar
@DoomsdaysCW @farbel @fdriesenaar
yeah exactly, I'm not here to argue about the ethics, but it is clear that if we cut animal protein consumption in half, we can almost double the nutrition value of the same area of land.
and luckily farming systems that are nicer to animals are also more productive, so there's plenty of room for more ethical behavior there.
Yeah, I'm one of those folks whose digestive system can't handle a lot of beans, @iwein . I've been reading Sean Sherman's "The Indigenous Kitchen," and also researching the benefits of goats versus cows. I've switched over to goat milk and cheese, and encourage those who have access (and who can't handle soy or alternatives) to do the same. @farbel @fdriesenaar
@DoomsdaysCW
As I said, I'm not here to lecture on the ethics, but i'm pretty sure that there are plenty of other options than industrial animal cruelty or beans.
I like for example the work Those Vegan Cowboys are doing along these lines (even though very technical/industrial, they do address both the ethical and sustainability problem in a fair and reasonable way)
Taran Rampersad@iwein @DoomsdaysCW @farbel @fdriesenaar I think it's fair to say that in the United States protein is over-marketed too.
I'm not vegan (please don't hurt me!) but in the same token, I probably have eaten more animal protein than I have used in my lifetime.
There is a way to strike a balance, I think, and maybe the center needs to be better seen by everyone.
I agree with you, @knowprose . And having known folks who have tried to grown their own soybeans (myself included), I know that it is not easy to grow enough to even make one block of tofu. If we want to be more self-sustaining, I think we need to be less fussy about food sources. Like even consider insects (wichety grubs are tasty and nutritious, for example). I'm not crazy about lab-grown meat though. There's a lot we don't know about how life is defined, and, well, having taken lives for food, I know it is not something that should be taken lightly, and done with as much respect as possible. Not in a factory.
@DoomsdaysCW I think, literally, everything is on the table.
Tracing my own dietary adventures over 54 years is a marvelous study in hardening arteries. I have references!
Growing up in the 70s in Ohio and Wisconsin, a steak dinner was the thing. It is in most of the world (except, notably, India). Now, after a heart attack, my diet has varied because I have, on my own, tried to do better. My doctor didn't tell me to.
My experience is anecdotal, but I'm certain I am not alone.
Oh yeah. Steak dinner, fast-food hamburgers. And daily even! The 70s was all about meat and potatoes, that's for sure, @knowprose ! I remember I tried to live on just fruit and nuts, and my grandmother looked at me like I was crazy. I've tried to eat a varied diet, though cheese is my weakness. And I'm sorry you had a heart attack, but glad that you are eating a more varied diet on your own! Hopefully, you will be on the mend. 🙂
@DoomsdaysCW Meh. the only people excited by my condition are the doctors. I take joy in breathing free and spending my time doing things I love.
My diet didn't change because of diet or screaming of outraged people. It changed because I decided to change.
Telling people what to do makes them defensive. Cooking a tasty meal without browbeating is completely different. :)
@knowprose I've spent time living in the Outback with Indigenous Australians, and also learned about wilderness survival from Native Americans and Native American-trained guides here in Maine. When you've worked up an appetite foraging for greens or gathering firewood, one appreciates some home-cooked grub (literally. lol)!
@DoomsdaysCW Concur.
An interesting thing to look at is the Pepper Pot, an indigenous 'dish' in Guyana/Suriname that everyone claims. I had some prepared in those areas in my wanders through South America.
Basically, whatever is gathered or hunted is thrown in the pot.
It's been bastardized. It is, simply put, "Cooking what you get with lots of seasoning".
@knowprose Heh. Sean Sherman has a few recipes like that. I saw one for rabbit stew in his cookbook.
@DoomsdaysCW Well, as a lifetime bachelor, it's been what I do with whatever I have on hand. Planning meals is something new. lol.
But basically, I cook what I have available. I just changed what I have available.
By changing that from the software engineer 'flat food' diet to... well, foods that aren't flat... 🤣