Mastodawn

I'm yet again reminded that accessibility technologies are priced unfairly. Did you know that a pair of hearing aids starts at roughly £500 but an average model can easily cost over £1500? And it's not like it's rocket science.
Similarly, Braille displays start at £1500, but can easily cost over £5000.
Similarly, the most popular and one of the most affordable Braille printers costs almost £3000.

Something can be said about special design requirements for such devices, or about the fact that there is no demand to make them at the scale that would allow to cut the costs ten times. And I can't even say that a high price is an excuse; if you'd try to build a Braille embosser that can operate at practical speeds with decent reliability using off the shelf components, you are likely to spend more money on it than you'd spend getting a commercial solution, even without R&D costs.

So, uh, folks, we can do better. I can't be the only one who keeps thinking about making such technologies cheaper, right?

Rudi (ryjelsum)Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina i've had a lot of issues with this in an academic context especially lol. like, i can figure out how to use consumer technology to navigate my disability (for this purpose: i cannot handwrite very much at all without the handwriting becoming laborious and illegible) but it doesn't help me very much when i cannot take those consumer technologies into assessment type situations typically due to all computers having wi-fi nowadays as a general rule, and there's really no guarantee that the college will have anything similar available

edit: the most direct example i think is actually how difficult it is to get just a word processor nowadays for cheaper than a laptop. the laptop is just simply the more practical option, but it doesn't meet the requirements of a typical assessment situation, and my situation does not seem to be very 'standard' from the conversation's i've had with my accessibility center over the years of having them sternly tell teachers to let me type things

@rudi @nina_kali_nina This is an interesting consequence of academia maintaining obsolete standards regarding knowledge & its comprehension.

Don't a lot of assistive technologies also come with such networking technologies built-in now too?

Rather than making exceptions for disabilities only (while ignoring any non-obvious ones like anyone with crippling anxiety, for instance), they should rework the entire concept and consider whether to discard it (exams are not a useful assessment of knowledge retention or comprehension).

@rudi @nina_kali_nina there is another problem with consumer technology as accessibility aids: health insurance pays for my hearing aids (at least partially) – but not for new smartphones when my neighbours with diabetic kids have to replace all their devices because the monitoring app for the insulin pump stops supporting older devices (old: everything below iPhone 13).

@rudi @nina_kali_nina I have Dyspraxia which has a very similar effect, and in assessment type situations, I have a scribe - so I dictate rather than writing or typing. Outside of that I can use whatever voice transcription software I like (although that generally has a higher learning curve in my opinion), but of course I can't use anything that's not offline, off the shelf in an academic assessment.

Rudi (ryjelsum)Feb 2

@JadedBlueEyes yeah i am currently navigating that right now for a math class that i've put off for literally a decade due to these issues (i took time off school during the pandemic for... a lot of reasons, and it's community college so i have the flexibility)

i have been set up with a scribe but i'm currently going full overkill and typesetting my homework which does wonders for comprehension compared to trying to figure out what the chicken scratch i wrote 5 minutes ago means, but i don't think they have computers with LaTeX software installed for me to use lmao. so taking the tests and doing the homework is going to be a pretty different experience

@rudi oh yeah definitely. I'm lucky that when I first started doing this in sixth form I had someone allocated to me once a week who I used to practice doing dictation with (mainly maths and politics), but at a university level that kind of resource isn't available anymore, so anyone starting at that point is at a disadvantage :(

@rudi @nina_kali_nina related to up thread, the only viable machine dictation software for the longest time was Dragon, which cost a bit more than half a grand - an absurd amount of money for a lot of us! Luckily recently open source software and even the AI wave has made a lot more cheap/free and very user friendly dictation/STT software available. It's not perfect yet but it's a lot better a situation than it used to be

Shrouded Scribe Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina I think this is a problem that requires subsidizing the costs of. There are a couple of ways this is already done (speaking from a US perspective) - hearing aids have some coverage under many health insurance plans, and schools receive funding that is supposed to be exclusively for accessibility improvements. But this is clearly not enough.

More government funding is required. And it sounds like that applies beyond the US.

@shroudedscribe
Government funding for colleges has only resulted in college tuition getting more expensive.

If people are paying $1000 now, and the government offers $500 in assistance, and the seller raises the price to $1400 - well, you're only spending 900 now, so it's still cheaper for you

You can't solve high prices by throwing money at the problem. Imo what we need is for people to undercut the sellers.

Solve the prices at the root.

@nina_kali_nina

@shroudedscribe
And from a purely ethical perspective: if a company is deliberately price gouging people they know are desperate, why should we reward that behavior by giving them more money in the form of subsidies?

@nina_kali_nina

LovesTha🥧Feb 2

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina @pixx depends a bit on how much the market is actually a free market. Universities aren't because there is little substitution at the high end and the price is so often deferred/paid by not the consumer that prices aren't kept in check.

Accessibility aids probably suffer from few suppliers, so the market isn't very free.

But I'm not sure their is a better real solution to the high prices other than subsidies.

@LovesTha
Or competitors.

I'd rather government subsidies specifically for cheaper competitors.

I'm not saying subsidies cannot work, just - they need more thought to work around the inherent problems

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina

@LovesTha
Basically, pay people to enter the market. Make it a freer market.

This has an inherent advantage: you can turn off the subsidies after a while and have a continued impact on prices.

Cover the upfront costs of entering the market somewhat to incentivize competition. Once people are in the market, you can withdraw the subsidy.

Instead of ongoing, per-
unit costs.

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina

LovesTha🥧Feb 2

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina @pixx I like prizes, say $10M to each of the first three companies to reach market below $X/unit. Current companies can do it, but they have to show how prices will stay lower.

@LovesTha
Make it a binding contract. Money upfront, but it's a loan. Loan is partly forgiven, starting when product hits market, at .6 percent of the original value per month, as long as the price remains in a specified range.

If the price dips out of the range, no big deal, but it's not forgiven at all *for that month*. Interest kicks in for all unforgiven months after, say, 1 year after the loan is given.

Anyone playing by the rules, even the existing companies, benefits from this as long as they keep prices low for five years.

This has a bonus effect: it helps meet demand at a lower price, making subsequent demand more flexible (i can hold off on getting a new one, i already have one, even if mine is slowly dying. I can wait a few months for a sale...), it rewards the good behavior, and it still gives upfront *cash* to nrw entrants so long as they can demonstrate that they're likely to actually bring a product to market.

Inspired heavily by some local homeowner assistance grants.

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina

@LovesTha
Add a few clauses to handle e.g. supply side problems (if materials get more expensive let's not hold it against them) and make sure all the incentives are as intended, and that it's also fair to the people accepting it (a year might be a bit of a crunch for instance, which favors existing players unfairly!)

Point is it's a solvable problem, just requires the will and to get up and talk to the people with the power to make it happen.

The only group that senators etc really don't care about at all, in a democracy, are the people who don't vote. .1% of voters can be a significant amount; it's not stupidly rare for that to affect the outcomes of an election. 100% of nonvoting people, not so much.

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina

@LovesTha
I could be missing some fundamental flaw but "loans which we forgive if you do this thing in the public interest" seems like a massively obvious improvement over grants tbqh

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina

LovesTha🥧Feb 2

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina @pixx it probably takes more administration, but for noticable upside

1 2/3a percent per month

10/6, not 6/10. Then 12 months * five years * 10/6 == 100% in five years.

@shroudedscribe @nina_kali_nina

@nina_kali_nina
I imagine a 3d printer with a paper feed as in a 2d printer could make a decent braille printer? 🤔

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@pixx it can produce something readable, but it's very slow. :(

@nina_kali_nina
Mmmm. Might be possible to speed it up if modding one to be special purpose, but - unsure how the effort compares to a better design

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@pixx at least there's https://www.braillerap.org/en/ as a point of reference

BrailleRAP

The BrailleRAP project is an open source, Do It Yourself Braille embosser. On this site, you'll find all the plans and diagrams, as well as the assembly manual and the necessary software.

@nina_kali_nina Regarding Braille... I'm aware of this effort: https://hackaday.io/project/191181-electromechanical-refreshable-braille-module

Electromechanical Refreshable Braille Module

The big drawback to refreshable braille devices has always been their cost. The loose rule of estimation applied to these products has translated into something like $100 to $150 per braille cell. A 40-cell display, in other words, may cost $4,000 to $6,000, while an 80-cell model will cost $8,000 to $12,000. And so it has been that, while desirable, braille computer access has been out of reach for many users of assistive technology. It is thus of great value to lower the cost of individual braille cells in order to manufacture Refreshable Braille Devices at a price that is affordable to the Visually Impared community. While commercially available braille displays use expensive piezo-electric actuated pins. This project employs an electromechanical system with off-the-shelf and easily manufacturable components, leveraging the accessibility of high-quality 3D Printers and micro-magnets to keep the cost low without compromising functionality.

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@alcinnz this cell seems to be based on the same approach as commercial devices, with the potential to cost just as much. No idea where's the catch

@nina_kali_nina I guess I'm unaware of the commercial approach they are or are not improving upon.

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@alcinnz I don't think they need to improve on any commercial approach; it's more like "if the technology is similar to commercial ones, will it be more affordable? If yes, what are the drawbacks?"
But it is definitely one of the most incredible open hardware projects out there.

@nina_kali_nina i've heard about an alternative project thing for braille display elements a long time ago, dunno what happened to that

also always assumed the output of a ribbonless impact printer wouldn't be suitable for braille, maybe a plotter would do a correct job but it'd also be quite slow, can't properly read the thing though so i don't know, it's silly ideas i got

don't know anything about hearing technologies sadly, can barely design an op-amp that works

Captain of the SS El Faro Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina surely, millions of people will be using hearing aids, and millions of people will have braille displays, thus economies of scale must exist. Those prices make me think of prices of medications like insulin which cost almost nothing to make and are sold for astronomical mark-ups. We absolutely can do better.

@nina_kali_nina a small bit of good news for people in the US with moderate hearing loss is our laws have been updated recently to allow the sale of hearing aids without requiring an expensive prescription or an audiologist. this has greatly brought down the cost. (I assume the ones rated for severe hearing loss that you need a prescription for are probably still absurdly expensive though)

@nina_kali_nina valve has been fond of touch pads with subtle haptics in their controllers, and I've been wondering how far they'll be able to push that technology. I doubt they're anywhere near to being useful for braille yet, but it makes me think that cheap mass produced haptic elements could probably be used for something.

@nina_kali_nina I'm sure at least one wearable computing nerd has already used a tiny vibrator and some gpio pins to rig up a morse code bash shell by now.

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@aeva likely, but morse code is painfully slow :(

Kirtai 🏳️‍⚧️Feb 2

@aeva @nina_kali_nina
Why a tiny vibrator?

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@kirtai @aeva practical reasons

@aeva @nina_kali_nina Would it be possible to provide a citation to the updated laws? I’m interested in following up regarding hearing aids

@lawyersgunsnmoney @nina_kali_nina search for the text "OTC Act" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_aid and you'll get a summary + some links for further reading.

Hearing aid - Wikipedia

@lawyersgunsnmoney @nina_kali_nina I found out when my mom got hearing aids, they just had her get them at costco. I also got the same recommendation from the audiologist I saw last year should I decide I want to try them out (I have severe hearing loss in one ear, but because my other is fine it's apparently a mixed bag whether or not I'll benefit much from hearing aids and it takes a long time to adjust).

@aeva @nina_kali_nina Thank you! This is very helpful. I checked out Costco a few years ago and will do so again.

@lawyersgunsnmoney @nina_kali_nina I vaguely remember they have something to help with funding, might be a very generous return policy

@aeva @nina_kali_nina It’s very kind of you to follow up, thank you! A few years ago we checked out Costco and the price of hearing aids at that time was the same as if we went through insurance. I strongly suspect that the calculation is different now so I will pursue your suggestion. Again, I very much appreciate your help!

@nina_kali_nina @lawyersgunsnmoney good luck!

Luci Bitchface Angerfoot Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina to some degree i understand these are treated like medical devices and can be partially covered by disability insurance schemes.

- and also the price is not just the device itself but a certain amount of support and verification of quality and durability

it sfill sucks though

@nina_kali_nina I feel like every 2 years there's some article saying how some new university project found a way to make braille displays 10x cheaper.

So far the only thing I've found that makes these cheaper is buying them used on ebay.

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@Lee_Holmes to be honest, I wouldn't be relying on academia alone. There are many interesting ideas that make for a great research project or a fun paper, but very few of them pass the test of time or get picked up by manufacturers. :(

@nina_kali_nina 100%. It all comes down to the price of piezios for the cells. They're just expensive. I've seen ideas of belt drive cell combinations, and they're just too complicated to do at scale.

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@Lee_Holmes I've been entertaining the idea of Braille displays on ferofluids since 2011, but my uni didn't have a budget for that. There was a paper from 2021 that shows that it's theoretically possible, so I think it might be worth trying to replicate in private. If it works, there will be very few moving parts, and the assembly shouldn't have any small parts whatsoever. The biggest challenge is the manufacturing of the closed ferofluid cells; ones I can think of either will need to be replaced often due to low durability or would be hard to make and operate.

Perhaps I should bite the bullet and experiment with it. The benefit of such cell displays is that they can be made fairly dense and shouldn't cost much, so it should be possible to make more than just one line of text, but also draw lines, render tables, or potentially even some sort of diagrams or charts maybe.

Haelwenn /элвэн/

@nina_kali_nina For braille embossers on the open-hardware side of things there's https://www.braillerap.org/ although not sure how it compares on the speed side of things (haven't seen commercial braille embossers yet, even though I've seen commercial braille displays quite few times).

BrailleRAP

Le projet BrailleRAP est une embosseuse Braille open source à construire soi même. Vous trouverez sur ce site l'ensemble des plans et schémas ainsi que le manuel d'assemblage et les logiciels necessaires.

Mike Gerdts Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina I think you just said that the typical US resident could fly premium
economy to the UK, buy some hearing aids, and see the sights for a few days before flying home for less than they typically pay for hearing aids in the US.

@nina_kali_nina I am optimistic that entry-level hearing aids will be solved for by colliding with the gigantic and hyper-competitive true wireless earbud market.

TWS eclipsed clinical hearing aids in ease of use and technology years ago, now Apple has legitimised hearing health in premium TWS, it's all poised to bust outrageous legacy business models wide open.

@nina_kali_nina

Hasn't played out quite as I expected yet (Jabra owned by world's biggest hearing aid co. exited Consumer, Sennheiser Consumer owned by 2nd biggest hearing aid co. not jumping in yet) but the pieces are there to make this a standard feature in millions of products sold widely across the world at a variety of accessible pricepoints.

As-is you can buy 3x pairs of AirPods Pro for the price of 1x set of hearing aids.

Will always be a place for specialists but the clock is ticking

Tony Finch Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina i’d love to know if vijay varada has made any progress turning his inexpensive braille display into a product https://hackaday.io/project/191181-electromechanical-refreshable-braille-module

Electromechanical Refreshable Braille Module

The big drawback to refreshable braille devices has always been their cost. The loose rule of estimation applied to these products has translated into something like $100 to $150 per braille cell. A 40-cell display, in other words, may cost $4,000 to $6,000, while an 80-cell model will cost $8,000 to $12,000. And so it has been that, while desirable, braille computer access has been out of reach for many users of assistive technology. It is thus of great value to lower the cost of individual braille cells in order to manufacture Refreshable Braille Devices at a price that is affordable to the Visually Impared community. While commercially available braille displays use expensive piezo-electric actuated pins. This project employs an electromechanical system with off-the-shelf and easily manufacturable components, leveraging the accessibility of high-quality 3D Printers and micro-magnets to keep the cost low without compromising functionality.

@nina_kali_nina My hearing aids cost a lot and they have an AI background noise filtering functionality, but I have no idea how to turn it on

Daniel Blake Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina
https://mastodon.social/@kirschner/115980318847652781

David JONES Feb 2

@nina_kali_nina and I suspect, in the UK, that they are mostly purchased with government/charity grants; meaning that they get the standard 100 to 1000% surcharge

@nina_kali_nina a friend at Sheffield hackspace is working on a braille display, currently just an open source software for it ( https://gitlab.com/RincewindLangner/braille-keyboard ) and then he's going to start looking into approaches for hardware. When he showed me the prices and existing options it blew me away. Also the technical challenge for making the tactile display matrix thing definitely looks intimidating to tackle

Matthew Langner / Braille keyboard · GitLab

GitLab.com

GitLab

CaféHaine Feb 2

@nnenov @nina_kali_nina Hi!

Is your friend aware of this open-source braille display module ? https://hackaday.io/project/191181-electromechanical-refreshable-braille-module

Electromechanical Refreshable Braille Module

The big drawback to refreshable braille devices has always been their cost. The loose rule of estimation applied to these products has translated into something like $100 to $150 per braille cell. A 40-cell display, in other words, may cost $4,000 to $6,000, while an 80-cell model will cost $8,000 to $12,000. And so it has been that, while desirable, braille computer access has been out of reach for many users of assistive technology. It is thus of great value to lower the cost of individual braille cells in order to manufacture Refreshable Braille Devices at a price that is affordable to the Visually Impared community. While commercially available braille displays use expensive piezo-electric actuated pins. This project employs an electromechanical system with off-the-shelf and easily manufacturable components, leveraging the accessibility of high-quality 3D Printers and micro-magnets to keep the cost low without compromising functionality.

@cafehaine @nina_kali_nina woah that looks cool! @rincewind

Rincewind Feb 2

@cafehaine @nnenov @nina_kali_nina No I wasn't aware of it. Will have to look into this one. Could be very useful. Thanks.

Nina Kalinina Feb 2

@rincewind @cafehaine @nnenov generally, do you need any help with your accessibility related software projects? I can boost a toot with a simple call to action; I also think I have a friend who might be interested in contributing a little bit