Ben Pate 🤘🏻RE: https://mastodon.social/@eff/115996451312302984
Wouldn’t it be cool if you could send encrypted DM’s on the Fediverse BEFORE you could do it in Bluesky? #JustBetweenUs
william.maggosyes but I like #matrix...
it's complicated. I'd love the simplicity of one ID but I also think social media (public) and social networking (close community) need to be somewhat separate. old school twitter was a great example of the former vs the latter encompassing how we connect with family, friends and interest groups on Facebook. I'd argue phone calls and texting is social networking too.
anyway, the distinction matters for moderation. basically everybody vs just people I trust.
@wjmaggos Yes, and this (obviously) doesn’t replace Matrix.
On the Fediverse, I think direct messages / private messages are underdeveloped. I was just talking to someone who REALLY wants this, and also wants a more standard UI for small conversations.
The plan is to have both modes available, with newsfeeds for public conversations, and a separate panel (or even a separate app connecting to my Emissary profile) to manage private messages (both encrypted and plaintext.
Jupiter Rowland@Ben Pate 🤘🏻 On the Fediverse, I think direct messages / private messages are underdeveloped.
Most of the Fediverse anyway. Including Mastodon.
The issue which makes people call for encryption is: Most of the Fediverse has got no permissions and no understanding for permissions. Mastodon DMs only define whom a toot is sent to, but not who is allowed to see it because this very concept doesn't exist on Mastodon. This means that anyone can pull anyone else into a "private" conversation just by mentioning them.
I think you can already guess that I'm looking at this from a Hubzilla veteran's point of view again. Hubzilla already had what's the Fediverse's second-most advanced permissions system before Mastodon was even developed. It works on three levels: for your whole channel, per contact, for certain content (e.g. a post and then the whole thread following it).
If you were on Hubzilla, too, and I sent you a message with only you as the target audience, i.e. a DM, not only would this define only you as the recipient, but it would also only grant you and me permission to see my DM as well as any and all follow-ups. You could mention other users all you want. They wouldn't receive your mention. They wouldn't be allowed to receive and see it.
And this is nothing Zot-specific. Forte has inherited the Fediverse's most advanced permissions system from (streams) which, in turn, is at the end of a whole tree of forks of Hubzilla. But while Hubzilla is based on Zot6, and (streams) is based on Nomad, Forte is entirely based on ActivityPub, and it doesn't support any other protocols. So in theory, it should be possible to port Forte's permissions system over to other Fediverse server software and even build an FEP from it.
The only downside is that it's rather complex, although Hubzilla's permissions system is even another bit more complex due to its dependency on templates. There's a monthly Hubzilla workshop in German, and it takes two sessions to cover permissions.
On (streams) and Forte, it's easier to handle, but you still have to know very well what you're doing and how to configure your new channel before you post anything or connect with anyone. That's also because (streams) and Forte default to private posting: At default settings both for your channel and for your new posts, the latter are restricted to your "Friends" access list (in which all your new connections land automatically) which makes Mastodon understand them as DMs.
CC: @william.maggos
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Permissions
Most of the Fediverse anyway. Including Mastodon.
The issue which makes people call for encryption is: Most of the Fediverse has got no permissions and no understanding for permissions. Mastodon DMs only define whom a toot is sent to, but not who is allowed to see it because this very concept doesn't exist on Mastodon. This means that anyone can pull anyone else into a "private" conversation just by mentioning them.
I think you can already guess that I'm looking at this from a Hubzilla veteran's point of view again. Hubzilla already had what's the Fediverse's second-most advanced permissions system before Mastodon was even developed. It works on three levels: for your whole channel, per contact, for certain content (e.g. a post and then the whole thread following it).
If you were on Hubzilla, too, and I sent you a message with only you as the target audience, i.e. a DM, not only would this define only you as the recipient, but it would also only grant you and me permission to see my DM as well as any and all follow-ups. You could mention other users all you want. They wouldn't receive your mention. They wouldn't be allowed to receive and see it.
And this is nothing Zot-specific. Forte has inherited the Fediverse's most advanced permissions system from (streams) which, in turn, is at the end of a whole tree of forks of Hubzilla. But while Hubzilla is based on Zot6, and (streams) is based on Nomad, Forte is entirely based on ActivityPub, and it doesn't support any other protocols. So in theory, it should be possible to port Forte's permissions system over to other Fediverse server software and even build an FEP from it.
The only downside is that it's rather complex, although Hubzilla's permissions system is even another bit more complex due to its dependency on templates. There's a monthly Hubzilla workshop in German, and it takes two sessions to cover permissions.
On (streams) and Forte, it's easier to handle, but you still have to know very well what you're doing and how to configure your new channel before you post anything or connect with anyone. That's also because (streams) and Forte default to private posting: At default settings both for your channel and for your new posts, the latter are restricted to your "Friends" access list (in which all your new connections land automatically) which makes Mastodon understand them as DMs.
CC: @william.maggos
#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Permissions
I’ll try to post some screenshots when I have them, so you can see where this is heading. I think the UX is critical for this to work right, and I think it will feel really smooth and natural when we roll this out.
I'm sure it will be great but I could also see approaching it by having server software and apps that did both AP and matrix.
I imagine the future being less about running an AP server than running a server for musicians that does AP but also simultaneously some new protocol that lets it be part of a decentralized Spotify etc. For most people, they probably don't want separate servers and apps for microblogging, pics, videos. etc.
Oh and maybe matrix replaces text, phone, zoom...