France moves to abolish concept of marital duty to have sex

https://lemmy.world/post/42456311

France moves to abolish concept of marital duty to have sex - Lemmy.World

France is to enshrine in law the end of so-called “conjugal rights” – the notion that marriage means a duty to have sex. A bill approved on Wednesday in the National Assembly adds a clause to the country’s civil code to make clear that “community of living” does not create an “obligation for sexual relations”. The proposed law also makes it impossible to use lack of sexual relations as an argument in fault-based divorce. Though unlikely to have a major impact in the courts, supporters hope the law will help deter marital rape.

Overall, I think this is a good idea.

My thoughts on the part about removing refusal of intimacy as justification of divorce are more nuanced, however - and partially informed from anecdotal experience.

Yeah it’s a whole different argument.

Being married does not entitle you to sex - great.

Wanting to divorce because not enough sex - fine.

It’s not so much that you felt the other person was obligated to provide the sex (though probably this is th real arhument) but more that it just turned out you are not that compatible or you just grew apart. Should a person not be allowed to divorce if they fell out of love with their partner, ergo they turned out to have less or no more sex?

Should a person not be allowed to divorce if they fell out of love with their partner, ergo they turned out to have less or no more sex?

They absolutely should, and they will still be able to, nothing’s changed there.

No, no, there’s a big change here.

Yes, divorces still go through as before, that doesn’t change. What does change is the context of fault in the divorce.

If sex is a marital obligation, the party refusing it can be considered at fault for the marriage failing. This usually carries consequences when it comes to splitting the assets, with the judges usually penalising the party “at fault”.

This makes it so that refusing to have sex cannot be grounds for being found at fault, and makes things more balanced.

Yes this is correct, we’re in complete agreement there. The comment I was responding to worded it vaguely though, which made it sound like you cannot get a divorce because you have a sexless marriage. It made it sound like people were being forcibly kept married, which is false. You can get divorced because it’s Tuesday, or because the moon is in retroflux. Holding your spouse responsible for those things is a different story, however.

For reference here’s the part of the comment I replied to:

Should a person not be allowed to divorce if they fell out of love with their partner, ergo they turned out to have less or no more sex?

Emphasis mine.

I admit I worded my comment vaguely because I was rather tired and wasn’t sure how I should express the nuance I feel around that. But to fix that:

In my experience, going from a reasonable, mutually healthy level of intimacy to one party just completely lacking interest is essentially never the core issue in play, but it is an exacerbating issue. For instance, with my ex, who I was with for five years: for the first couple years, things were pretty great. Then she ended up slipping into perhaps the worst long-term episode of severe depression and video game addiction I have ever seen in my life. I’m talking 12-14h at least a day in a KRPG, completely withdrawing from IRL social interaction (including with me, for the most part) and supplanting it with constantly being on voice chat with the various clans she was a part of over time in the game. Mind you, I enjoy gaming myself, and have struggled with overdoing in the past as well, but never to this extent in terms of length and severity. And despite trying to find numerous ways to help/support her, encouraging her to find different and better therapists and psychiatrists, and figuring out how to rebalance her meds - including offering to just be on the phone with me for 30 seconds at the beginning of the call and just saying “I give permission for my partner to discuss this stuff with you and try to find a better solution because my mental state prohibits me from doing that right now”, being effectively unable to make any motion in a positive mental health direction. To the point that it got so bad that I became severely depressed and began aggressively self medicating, eventually to the point that I realized staying in the dynamic would probably kill me, in a very literal sense. She would barely come out of her room for dinner towards the end, and I was absolutely not about to get her to just let me “use” her for intimate gratification when the chemistry was completely gone and she was gonna just lie there like a fish - I’d have felt like I was assaulting her, and I refuse to do that.

So: no, it shouldn’t be the grounds for a divorce (or partner separation, I happen to not give a shit about marriage outside of the context of tax benefits, but I take a committed partnership very seriously), but it can and should be considered an exacerbating circumstance in a relationship that has extremely serious, long-lasting problems that essentially put everything into a death spiral.

Also: I’m sharing this for context and nuance as an explanation of my opinion. I’m not asking for or desiring feedback or constructive (or otherwise) criticism or judgement. Me explaining this is an infinitesimal fraction of the lived experience of it, like you saying your partner is “pretty cool”, when there are myriad shades of nuance to a partnership. It is a closed chapter of my life, and I am better for it.

Only rational civil unions should exist and have whatever legal powers the people involved deem necessary so long as they aren’t against public policy

Marriage should not be a recognized institution and should be relegated to the halls of religious extremists

There are less hyperbolic ways to say marriage shouldn’t carry various legal benefits over civil unions just because it’s more or less become a tradition.

This reads like someone showing up for Christmas dinner with the family and tearing down the decorations because they don’t like how commercialized the holiday has become.

It took until 2026 for France to remove the sex requirement of marriage

Don’t pretend it’s some innocent institution

It should be scrapped entirely as a legal mechanism and replaced wherever possible

I didn’t pretend marriage is universally innocent. I said it’s a tradition just like hanging colourful lights on a tree within a home in December, and that it’s just as aggressive to state everyone be rid of their decorations as that the concept of marriage should be abolished.

I didn’t say I thought you were wrong - I said the initial comment read a bit hot off the stove.

It’s not just a tradition it’s a tradition that actively creates and informs legal rules anchored to that tradition

Your analogy between the enduring institution of marriage with Christmas lights is simply false

www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/false-analogy/

False Analogy - Definition and Examples

False Analogy, also called _Faulty Analogy_ is an informal logical fallacy, here are definitions, examples, metaphors and typical responses.

Logical Fallacy

Your argument seems more against religion (and inferrably monogamy) than it does marriage itself. Especially if “civil union” is your alternative.

I don’t see what the benefit would be to just go through the family law and replace the term “marriage” with “civil union”.

Health Insurance is a big one.
A huge victory for the assexual community.

assexual

That extra S kinda changes things.

One more s would be needed, to be sure
asssexuals are a pain in the ass
There isnot point to marriage at this point lol
Did not think id come across someone bemoaning the illegality of marital rape today. You either do not understand what you are talking about or you are a genuinely horrible person.

My parents are still married and they haven’t had sex in like a decade.

I know because when I was a kid, I sleeped in their room often, never seen it happen

Honeyyy it’s time for our state mandated sex!
*Pulls out state-mandated condom and state mandated vibrator*
I don’t agree with this at all. If you are a very sexual person and suddenly your partner isn’t thats not your fault and you have a right to be happy with someone else if you so choose
This is what No-fault divorce is for.
I think about it all too often…
There are several concepts you may wish to read up on, such as polyamory and divorce.
Except that is exactly what this law states - that you can onesidedly divorce based on a sexless marriage. So now you cant divorce for fault and need your spouses approval

That… is not how any of this works. You can totally divorce even if your spouse refuses. There’s mutual consent, at fault, mutual acceptance of marital breakdown (irreconcilable differences), and definitive severance- i.e, you are no longer living as a couple.

As a side note, it’s fucking hilarious that your worst possible imaginary scenario is what’s been actual reality for most women until extremely recently.

Am I just misunderstanding what your saying, to me the worst case scenario for women would be what the right in American wants, for men to have to give approval for a divorce.

That’s absolutely not what I want, I’m just saying sexalual drive varies greatly and if you are someone who loves sex and suddenly you find yourself in a dead bedroom,. You should have the right to leave the relationship and make yourself happy

I think you are misunderstanding this thread.

The person I’m replying to thinks the law change means you are potentially trapped in a marriage you no longer want and need your spouses ‘approval’ to leave (in the case of a sexually dead marriage) - which isn’t just US right wing fantasy, it’s been a reality for women worldwide and still is in many places.

They are incorrect btw. You have the right to leave a dead bedroom marriage. You have the right to find a more sexually compatible partner. The law changes we’re discussing do not remove any of these from people under french law.

Can you pls not misgender me thank you
Apologies, removed the (men)

I mean I am not from France but as far as I can see there is not an option in this list from that is not a fault and not strictly a way to do a divorce on your own. refugies.info/en/…/60a7b164331be50014dd88cc

How does this work then can you guide me to information about it?

The only option here would be to not live together which maybe impossible for you financially or could even be boycotted by your partner and it would take a year at least as far as I can see here. So therefore their needs to be a different way you didn’t had on your list or on the refugirs info side that’s an option for a faultless one sided divorce because you are in a sexless marriage

Getting divorced in France

Find out how to go through the divorce procedure in France to separate from your spouse

Réfugiés.info

Well i listed a series of literal legal divorce categories in france, just in english names.

the at fault one is the only one affected by this change, and you can still have other reasons why you think the other person tanked the marriage ( a “fault” divorce is basically “I can’t stay married to this person, they broke it” which is why they’re saying "no, you can’t say “refused to give me the sex i want” - It’s a pressure tactic that can get in the bin)

Like all laws you can get dispensations and other proofs - like you said in this economy you might me stuck together but if you have separate personal bills and can prove you’ve been out dating other people, living in a different room and having a separate life it would probably fly. Also again, it’s just the sex that’s no longer a reason, for you to get to the point where you have a dead bed marriage and are unable to talk out a reasonable arrangement or divorce there are going to be a lot of other reasons you can cite for an at fault divorce.

But realistically, most people work it out. An at fault is usually a punishment move. Sometimes the punishment is deserved , sometimes it’s just spite. This law aims to remove sexual coercion.

Speaking as a man, I don’t anyone to fuck me out of obligation, I want to be fucked by a someone who is really into me and wants to fuck me because they are a really into me and are horny as fuck for me :3
what happens if your friends owes you like three fiddy?

Fault based divorce is already a stupid concept (under the law).

Someone MAY be at fault, but you should never need to provide a reason beyond “I don’t want to anymore” to commence divorce proceedings.

Marriage is just legal protections for the partners in the event of a separation (i.e. rights to split assets and whatnot).

But it’s still entirely voluntary.

Well, in nice countries anyway.