Grant Goodale
the lucha whore"what if the ship of theseus was sentient" is not a question I was prepared to grapple with on a monday
elizabeth worm🔅
@leshiaaimee “what if the ship of theseus was sentient?” of course you are
Sophie Schmieg@leshiaaimee wait until you learn what your body does with your cells all the time…
Andrei@sophieschmieg @leshiaaimee Neurons generally don't get replaced over our lifetimes (or at least they do only partially and very slowly)
TheSecondVariation@s0x41 @leshiaaimee True. They do change all the time, though. Like thinking literally changes who you are, at a structural level, at least if you do it enough.
Andrew
PeterThat's ... remarkably deep.
FeralRobots@leshiaaimee "I am a Ship of Theseus And So Are You"
World Basement Classic@FeralRobots @leshiaaimee "I have a new mouth and I must scream"
EndlessMason
Prof. Rachel Thorn 🍉🇺🇦🏳️⚧️🏳️@leshiaaimee The image is from a Thomas the Tank Engine picture book. A mechanic is putting a new smokestack on Thomas with a crane. Thomas looks up with an expression that can be read as surprise or wonder. Underneath the image is the following text:
Thomas didn't enjoy his time at the Works. "It's nice to feel mended again," he said afterwards, "but they took so many of my old parts away and put new ones in, that I'm not sure whether I'm really me or another engine." #ALT4you
Thomas didn't enjoy his time at the Works. "It's nice to feel mended again," he said afterwards, "but they took so many of my old parts away and put new ones in, that I'm not sure whether I'm really me or another engine." #ALT4you
Paul Fenwick@RachelThornSub @leshiaaimee : Thank you for this!! Now I can retoot! ✨💖
2something@leshiaaimee This was one of the responses to Searle's Chinese Room argument. Searle asserted that a machine can never be "truly" conscious, even if it has the exact same functionality as a human brain, because the individual pieces of the machine are not conscious.
One response is to ask what happens if a human is given brain surgery to replace a single neuron with a computer chip with the exact same size and function, thereby keeping the brain's function exactly the same. Then the human gets surgery to replace a second neuron, again without changing anything about how their mind works. And a third. If the process continues until all neurons have been replaced, then you have an all-computer brain which behaves exactly the same as a human brain.
According to Searle, the human brain is conscious, while the identically-behaving robot brain is not. At what point in the replacement process does it cease to be conscious?
EDIT:
And of course someone already put it on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room#Brain_replacement_scenario
One response is to ask what happens if a human is given brain surgery to replace a single neuron with a computer chip with the exact same size and function, thereby keeping the brain's function exactly the same. Then the human gets surgery to replace a second neuron, again without changing anything about how their mind works. And a third. If the process continues until all neurons have been replaced, then you have an all-computer brain which behaves exactly the same as a human brain.
According to Searle, the human brain is conscious, while the identically-behaving robot brain is not. At what point in the replacement process does it cease to be conscious?
EDIT:
And of course someone already put it on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room#Brain_replacement_scenario
WesDym@2something Searle's hypothesis seems to me to rely on assumptions about what and where consciousness is, and how it 'starts'. He could well be wrong about that.
@wesdym
I don't think the Chinese Room can be called a "hypothesis." To be a hypothesis, it would have to make predictions that could be tested by an experiment.
Searle's argument is
1) Imagine a hypothetical machine which is completely indistinguishable from a human brain to any outside observations.
2) [Insert a bunch of semantics about definitions.]
3) Therefore, the machine from step (1) is not conscious even though no observer can distinguish it from a conscious being.
Searle's claim is, by design, impossible to test with any experiment. The first step assumes that no experiment could distinguish the Chinese Room machine from a human who is fluent in Chinese.
I don't think the Chinese Room can be called a "hypothesis." To be a hypothesis, it would have to make predictions that could be tested by an experiment.
Searle's argument is
1) Imagine a hypothetical machine which is completely indistinguishable from a human brain to any outside observations.
2) [Insert a bunch of semantics about definitions.]
3) Therefore, the machine from step (1) is not conscious even though no observer can distinguish it from a conscious being.
Searle's claim is, by design, impossible to test with any experiment. The first step assumes that no experiment could distinguish the Chinese Room machine from a human who is fluent in Chinese.
0xPsibut doesn't that thought experiment just smuggle in functionalism as a premise? how do we know "exact same function" actually preserves whatever it is that makes subjective experience, rather than just outward behavior?
@oxpsi No, it assumes the opposite. If you assume Searle is right and that a machine can behave identically to a human without being conscious, then at what point during the replacement process does the brain cease to be conscious?
Ben Ramsey@leshiaaimee @kf I’m glad my son was never really into Thomas the Tank Engine. I used to call that show “Trains With Inferiority Complexes,” and why would I want to watch a show about my life? 😉
jollyrogue@leshiaaimee @rowens 😄 The cells in the human body get replaced regularly, but we’re still considered us. It’s the consciousness and memories/history that makes us who we are. We are familiar to other people.
Following the same logic, conscious machines would still be them as long as they are familiar to others.
jer@jollyrogue @leshiaaimee @rowens
Until you hit an identity crisis caused by physical or mental trauma. Over time you get acquainted with the new you, and/or you will rejoice in reacquainting yourself with lost and found abilities.
GabeMoralesVR@jollyrogue @leshiaaimee @rowens "but we’re still considered us"
Are we? Am I still the same person I was when I was 5 years old? What part of me now is the same as I was 35 years ago? I have forgotten memories that were fresh at that age, and I have history now that I didn't back then. Objectively *more* history now than I did back then, in fact. Are we the same, or is our past merely a subset of our present? My opinions, my dreams, my personality, etc. They're all night and day different.
HighlandLawyer@GabeMoralesVR @jollyrogue @leshiaaimee @rowens
Contra-argument: past you, present you, and future you are all part of a single four dimensional object; that object is "you", which your consciousness traverses.
Contra-argument: past you, present you, and future you are all part of a single four dimensional object; that object is "you", which your consciousness traverses.
@HighlandLawyer @jollyrogue @leshiaaimee @rowens Quantify our consciousness, show me the physical nature of consciousness such that it would exist in a physical tangible dimension. I don't buy this because I don't even believe consciousness is an actual, singular thing, in exactly the same way our eyes don't actually see frames.
Wulfy—Speaker to the machines@GabeMoralesVR @jollyrogue @leshiaaimee @rowens
Humans are merely containers for souls.
At least according to a species possibly 200,000 years older than us.
You are a soulbag.
This is as valid theory as any, as there is no consensus as to what consciousness is.
@GabeMoralesVR @jollyrogue @leshiaaimee @rowens
That's fair enough.
We can't prove consciousness (beyond our own).
And we can't prove existence of souls.
However there are literally tens of thousands verified #NDE that seem to support theory of souls.
With some scientific explanation theories available that offer materialistic explanation for souls (conscious quantum field being the fundamental substrate of reality)
Ada (Villain arc) 🏳️⚧️@leshiaaimee This needs alt text so the blind can know that this post is because of Thomas the fucking train
Navi 
@Axolotl1 @leshiaaimee good news, it has that now
ollibaba@leshiaaimee Also, the sentient Theseus ship is tied to the trolley tracks; and tied to the other line is the ship that was constructed from its replacement parts, and it is sentient as well – or is it?
Which track do you put the trolley on, and can you afterwards repair the broken ship and its sentience and your conscience?
Which track do you put the trolley on, and can you afterwards repair the broken ship and its sentience and your conscience?
Renalia - #1 pizza downloader@ollibaba @leshiaaimee and also the trolley is sentient and is begging you to pull the second lever that will cause it to stop but you can't hear it because of it's too far away
Droid Boy 
@leshiaaimee I always understood Thomas journey as one of transience.
11SprongingProngs11
GeofCoxBrits will be reminded of 'Trigger's Broom' in the classic comedy 'Only Fools & Horses ("I've kept the same broom for 20 years. It's had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in that time.")
Arik@leshiaaimee the question is, where is the seat of consciousness for a sentient train engine?
RowinSpeez@leshiaaimee were all just 4-dimensional worms that arc from our mothers to our final resting places hey?
Jon Roach@leshiaaimee 😆 this now has me in a query whether preserved locomotives that comprise salvaged parts from multiple original locomotives have multiple consciousnesses and if they are okay. It would certainly resolve the angry feelings in the Class 50 Central face book group as to whether 50046 should really have been sacrificed to keep 50007 running.
Adamski the Hodgepodge@leshiaaimee Congrats to Thomas on his top surgery.
Peter Milley 🇨🇦@leshiaaimee Your cells are constantly replenishing...the atoms of your body are constantly changing...in the past, the atoms that are you were all elsewhere and in the future they will all be something else. Like me, you are a braid, a patchwork of long-dead stars, crawling through time like a worm...
GLCI was tempted to make this comment but having it read it now three times in the thread I'll pass*. (I assume it recurs farther down as well.)
I'm not surprised to see it here, but I am surprised to see it as more or less the first reaction. Interesting. It may have something to do with who's posting and who's following.
*Apophasis.
aj@leshiaaimee Wow, a contemplation I was not ready for on a rainy Thursday afternoon. 😂
rk: it’s hyphen-minus actuallyI hate to tell you but you are the Ship of Theseus, both physically and psychologically, and you are sentient.
Shit’s fucked.
Davey@leshiaaimee for those having fun with the "are we or aren't we", the Ologies episode about biogerontology (Aging) has a few things in it I found interesting: https://pca.st/zvbnulg1
Vera@leshiaaimee It's very useful in analyzing the original ship of Theseus paradox from the perspective of continuity of conciousness though.
@leshiaaimee this comes to mind (though I acknowledge it is somewhat problematic and do not endorse all of its ideas): http://www.datapacrat.com/weirdtopia/index.html
Rexx Deane 🏳️🌈@leshiaaimee Everyone else already beat me to it, but it makes me glad that I used the metaphor in one of my novels that organic beings are 'effectively just a standing wave.'
Whine Spectator@leshiaaimee my curt reply is that none of this matters because Thomas is still an asshole
CatsWhoCode (Fuckaas Version)@leshiaaimee thomas the theseus engine
60sRefugee@leshiaaimee You might find the story of Nick Chopper a.k.a. The Tin Woodsman disturbing.
kechpaja@leshiaaimee Did other people not already deal with this question as a kid after learning that your body mass turns over every seven years (and/or by pondering what a digital upload would be like)?
TK Wolf - Extra Life Nov 15-16@leshiaaimee Everyone asks what is the ship of theseus, but never how is the ship of theseus. :(
Todd Knarr@leshiaaimee How about "What happens to a person when every cell in their body has died and been replaced by a new one?".
Tanys FosterPost-op body dysmorphia?