Mastodawn

Bart Schuller Oct 13

The word 'Vrede' jumped out at me from this 'Peace' installation. 'Vrede' is Danish for anger, fury, wrath. I wondered if it was an artistic provocation. But it seemed too confined to chance, that someone who happens to understand Danish happens to see this German artwork. So I looked it up and learned that 'vrede' is Dutch for 'peace'.

Vrede. Peace in Dutch. Wrath in Danish. I wonder if there's a word for words like these, that mean the opposite in different languages.

https://pixelfed.social/p/Rudini/881293271414254882

Rüdi (@[email protected])

Fotografiert 2018 auf dem Roncalliplatz in Köln.

Pixelfed

Well now I'm sitting here staring at my new realisation that Vrede is Dutch for Peace and Vrede is Danish for Wrath and Fred is Danish for Peace. Depending on your accent and how tired you are and how much you mumble, Vrede and Fred sound the same. Vrede and Fred. Wrath and Peace.

@CiaraNi Falske venner med udtaletwist!

@ondekvinde 'Udtaletwist' - godt ord!

Henk van der Eijk Oct 12

@CiaraNi The expression that springs to mind is ‘false friends’, but I’m not sure that covers what you mean.

I agree there should be a word for this, in English, Dutch and Danish.

@HenkvanderEijk I think 'false friends' is when a word look or sounds similar in two different languages, so it 'tricks' people into thinking it must mean the same thing. Like 'eventuelt' in Danish and 'eventually' in English. Danish speakers often get tripped up here, thinking that 'eventually' means 'possibly' (like 'eventuelt'), not 'in the fullness of time, at a later time'.

@CiaraNi @HenkvanderEijk "Eventueel" in Dutch is also something like "possible/ perhaps"

@Satse @HenkvanderEijk Ah, not just in Danish so. It is one of the most common mistakes I see Danish-speakers making in English.

@CiaraNi
@Satse @HenkvanderEijk
Same in German. 🙂

Jenica Lake เหล็ถเลถ Oct 12

@CiaraNi @HenkvanderEijk like embarasado meaning pregnant in Spanish but embarrassed meaning shame in English

Michael Knudsen Oct 12

@MamaLake @CiaraNi @HenkvanderEijk I could easily see one being used as a euphemism for the other, especially just 100 years ago.

@mk Sounds likely. And far more recently than 100 years ago, sadly. And still probably now in many countries and cultures.

@MamaLake @HenkvanderEijk

@MamaLake @HenkvanderEijk This one immediately makes me assume that misogyny was at work. Like pregnant women's visibly pregnant bodies being considered an embarrassment, and pregnant women being hid away, or being required to be 'churched' or blessed or 'cleansed' after the birth.

Johannes Hentschel Oct 12

@CiaraNi
Yes, that's what's the case, no? Bcause as a German speaker, Danish "vrede" is a false friend for me because I would have intuited it to mean Frieden (peace)
@HenkvanderEijk

@johentsch @HenkvanderEijk It's close, though not quite there to mean the actual opposite of itself in two different languages.

@CiaraNi @HenkvanderEijk same for German speakers.

@kauer @HenkvanderEijk It's an easy and common mistake. And can also be an unfortunate one if one party thinks something is agreed and confirmed and the other thinks it's only a possibility.

Cassana 🍻Oct 12

@HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi I know the concept as false cognates, which are usually only considered such within a language family, like in this case, Germanic. I quite like “eng; German: narrow, Dutch: scary, Danish/Norwegian: meadow, Luxemburgish:one. Perhaps there’s a Multilingualese phrase like: Eng eng eng eng = a narrow scary meadow?

@cassana @HenkvanderEijk Eng eng eng eng - deilightful. I didn't know 'eng' meant 'scary' in Dutch. That has an opposite feeling too, compared to the calm of the word 'meadow'. Now I'm reminded of this descriptive dissonance from Douglas Adams. I've been using the phrase 'like getting mugged in a meadow' for relevant situations ever since I first read this.

'The Galaxy, which had been enjoying a period of unusual peace and prosperity at the time, reeled like a man getting mugged in a meadow.'

Henk van der Eijk Oct 12

@CiaraNi 'eng' can mean scary in Dutch, but in (old) landscape typology it can also stand for a (common) field for crops, usually on higher ground with one or more villages at its edge (also called 'enk', by the way). @cassana

@HenkvanderEijk @cassana The connections and variations are fascinating

Gerard Cunningham ✒️Oct 12

@HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana

Sometimes, you don't even need a full language shift.
'Cute' has very different meanings in British English and Hiberno-English

@faduda It does indeed. That's a great example of another linguistic variety - the same word meaning the opposite (or close to the opposite) in the same language, depending on which regional variation you speak.

@HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Enola Knezevic Oct 12

@CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana Ah yes, autoantonyms or contronyms.

ETA: Also words change meanings, and rapidly. "Nice" comes to mind.

@rhelune Oh yes, those words that flip meaning. Fascinating.

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Colin Rosenthal ✡️🕎 ❤️🇮🇱❤️ 🕎✡️Oct 12

@CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana There are several of these between US and UK English - for example the adjective "moot" and the verb "to table" iirc. An interesting borderline case is "grine" which means laugh in Danish and cry in Norwegian - do they count as false friends, or as regional antonyms?

Gerard Cunningham ✒️Oct 12

@colinrosenthal @CiaraNi @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Indeed. Oscar Wilde long ago described Americans and English as two peoples separated by a common language.

@colinrosenthal 'do they count as false friends, or as regional antonyms? Great question.

Until now, I didn't know 'moot' had conflicting meanings. I always understood it in the sense 'a moot point' or 'et akademisk spørgsmål'.

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Colin Rosenthal ✡️🕎 ❤️🇮🇱❤️ 🕎✡️Oct 13

@CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

The "moot" thing is kind of subtle. It means something between "up for discussion", "irrelevant", and "undecidable". I'm not sure whether the distinction is really a US/UK one or just a more general ambiguity.

@colinrosenthal I'm not sure either. To me it means 'discussion is irrelevant because it will make no actual difference'. Maybe we should adopt Joey from Friends' version. From memory: he called it a 'moo point'. When challenged, he said 'moo point' was right. 'It's like a cow's opinion, it doesn't matter.' Which makes perfect sense to me.

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Colin Rosenthal ✡️🕎 ❤️🇮🇱❤️ 🕎✡️Oct 13

@CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana https://www.theguardian.com/media/mind-your-language/2015/jan/16/mind-your-language-moot-point 🙂

The meaning of ‘moot’ is a moot point – whichever variety of English you speak

David Marsh: Open to debate, or unworthy of it – ‘moot’ can mean either. At least that’s the argument I’m mooting

The Guardian

@colinrosenthal Thanks for the link

Queen of Anxiety Oct 13

@colinrosenthal @CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana “Moot” in the US means something akin to overtaken by events. Whether your guest wants chocolate or vanilla is moot if they don’t show up, for example.

In the UK, it means more like an open question. So whether or not the guest wants chocolate or vanilla is a moot question, so we should ask them.

@queenofnewyork I never thought it was regional. The US sense is the one I know too, here in European English.

Queen of Anxiety Oct 13

@CiaraNi I wonder if the US version is taking over?

@queenofnewyork Very possibly - that sounds plausible.

@CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Lots of examples of these in English — dependent on context, not even regional variations. “Cleave” means “join together” and “split apart.” “Sanction” means both “allow” and “punish.” “Oversight” means both “close scrutiny” and “mistaken omission.” And so on.

@CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana Also interesting to see how shifts in word meanings can give a glimpse into geopolitical history. “Seguro” means “certain” in Spanish but “uncertain” or “maybe” in Tagalog (in the Philippines, a former Spanish colony). And the Spanish “mañana” (“tomorrow”) became “mamaya na” (“later,” in some undefined future) in Tagalog. It’s a fascinating window into a colonial history of broken promises.

@bluejay Great examples.

'a fascinating window into a colonial history of broken promises.' Nicely put.

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Gerard Cunningham ✒️Oct 12

@bluejay @CiaraNi @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

There's an old joke that they had to abandon the Spanish-Irish dictionary when they got to mañana, because no Irish word could convey the same sense of urgency.

@faduda :-) @bluejay @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Steve Gisselbrecht Oct 12

@bluejay @CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

In fairness, I am told that mañana in Mexican Spanish also means "not today."

@stevegis_ssg @CiaraNi @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana That’s also a colonial relationship, so the meaning may have shifted for similar reasons. All speculation on my part, but not too far-fetched, I think!😁

@bluejay Yes indeed - the controyms, that can mean two opposite things in the same language.

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Twobiscuits🚴‍♂️

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana An American colleague (who is Jewish) coped for a long time in a job where one of her Irish colleague's favourite expressions was "Fair dues", which she (given New York vs. Irish Midlands pronunciation) thought was "Fair Jews". She only finally asked about it when I as Irish person no. 2 joined the team.

@twobiscuits @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana

Then there was the poor misfortunate who moved to Cork & wondered for years why everyone called him "Timmy".

The phrase in question:- "Come here to me"

@IanOB Haha - I can see and hear that. And even if they heard C'mere or Come here, they'd no doubt take literal steps to walk over to whoever said it.

@twobiscuits @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Gerard Cunningham ✒️Oct 12

@CiaraNi @IanOB @twobiscuits @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

The Dubliner who calls you "Pal" is not your friend.

HighlandLawyer Oct 12

@faduda @CiaraNi @IanOB @twobiscuits @HenkvanderEijk @cassana
Whereas the Glaswegian may or may not be, according to tone.

Twobiscuits🚴‍♂️

@HighlandLawyer @faduda @CiaraNi @IanOB @HenkvanderEijk @cassana and may greet his pals with a cheerful "orrigh', cu*t!"

@twobiscuits This made me laugh actually out loud and also laugh in horror. Oh no! Must've been awful for her, thinking a colleague was saying that and not feeling she could speak up. Good job you turned up and she could ask and you could explain.

This reminded me of my regular phrase for saying goodbye or signing off, especially to someone who's going through a difficult time. 'Mind yourself.' For years, I didn't realise that, to those unfamiliar with it, it can sound like a mafia threat.

Colin Rosenthal ✡️🕎 ❤️🇮🇱❤️ 🕎✡️Oct 12

@twobiscuits @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana There is also a very old joke based on the phrase "woke up under a heavy dew". I'll leave you to guess or Google the details!

@colinrosenthal Ha! @twobiscuits @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana
Now I know why my mother said, "Don't be cute."".

@mtechman You were probably acting the maggot at the time too :-)

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

Peter Middelkoop Oct 12

@faduda @HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana
How about the Dutch word "lekker" 😀

https://youtu.be/eHEdympdg_0

Lekker! Learn when and how to use this versatile Dutch word

YouTube

@Petermid Handy word! @faduda @HenkvanderEijk @cassana

@HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi @cassana Eng in (old) Dutch also meant narrow

@johan It's interesting and often lovely, how the languages harmonise and echo one another

@HenkvanderEijk @cassana

@cassana @HenkvanderEijk @CiaraNi I’m always fascinated how words change meaning based on how they’re used. Like eng. Which became scary probably because narrow anything is scary. In Dutch eng was mostly used for streets and waterways

@johan 'Which became scary probably because narrow anything is scary.' I'd never thought of that. Narrow alley. Narrow passage. Narrow tunnel. Places you can get trapped and scared. Interesting!

@cassana @HenkvanderEijk