NAFO expansion non-negotiable.
ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIESA #blocklist is not going to be polite
It's a blocklist after all
So much for "#composableModeration" on #centralized #Bluesky
Diane 🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈@benroyce I got put on "Genocide Deniers" and "Probably a Russian Troll" blocklist for no good reason. Absolutely nothing came of it when I reported it.
And for the record, I only posted pro-Palestine and leftist content, so I don't know why, other than spite, someone would put me on either.
yeah, "composable moderation" is rife for abuse, *and* bluesky corporate will squash it as it sees fit
bluesky is a joke
@benroyce Marzgurl got stomped for making a list of Vic Mignogna apologists. Fuck that site
i've always resented #bluesky
1. the crypto bro "it's decentralized, we promise!" and it isn't and never was
2. and the problem of venture capital. you can't trust that
when the investors aren't happy anymore, they put in an elon musk type at the helm to monetize the shit out of it, and worse, and it goes full fascist
that's just a matter of when, not if, with media corporations
and now it looks like it is happening
and i'm angry because all of this was inevitable
Mark T. Tomczak@madameoconnel86 @benroyce Ever denied a genocide so hard you... Spread information on an ongoing genocide?
FR that's wild.
@madameoconnel86 @benroyce Aye, that'd do it.
@benroyce exhales slowly through nose
Some time ago, I added esr to the list of "people I looked up to as a kid who I grossly misunderstood" because he made a list of people in academia who were cancelling people for hate speech, homophobia, and transphobia. I let him know I thought he sas making the absolute wrong choice.
... but I never in my life had the hubris to imagine I could stop him from making and publishing that list.
Must be wild to think that's a thing you can do.
janggolan@benroyce all yr vault r belong to ai
CakeMonster@benroyce HOW DARE YOU CREATE A BLOCKLIST! ESPECIALLY AGAINST AI!
Emelia 👸🏻@benroyce I've seen a few of these lists, and the people on them aren't "AI Slop Posters" but just people who have different views on AI technology and how it can be used in productive ways, along with people who said "yeah, maybe we shouldn't normalise being abusive to things we think are AI"
sure, a #blocklist can be capricious and abusive, and subject to pique
but the overarching concept is that anyone makes a blocklist, and makes it as rigorous and comprehensive, or random and shoddy, as they want
and then people subscribe to it or not depending upon its quality (or lack thereof: is the theoretical harm in that a problem if it is self-imposed?)
if #bluesky corporate polices that, then what we get is they've removed the entire premise of #composableModeration
@benroyce if I add you to a list which deliberately attempts to defame or slander you, then you'd probably want either the list removed or your self removed from it.
There's a balance here.
sure
so #bluesky's effort to farm out #moderation doesn't solve any problems
iit makes them worse in fact for the reasons you delineate
moderation is moderation. it has to be done, there's no way around it
"well i hate it, the job sucks. why don't we just shift the responsibility, outsource it with no money involved and wash our hands of it. we can hype up the idea of 'freedom' and sell it as a gimmick that way"
et voila
the terrible motivation results in a terrible reality
@benroyce as if we don't outsource moderation on the fediverse already? How many times have blocklists been inaccurate? We've had these very issues too.
And just because you don't see it, doesn't mean that there's not like 99% of Bluesky's moderation actually working correctly and quietly behind the scenes. You tend to see the 1% that it doesn't produce great outcomes.
We've also seen that in the fediverse too.
#moderation is a shit job. always was, always will be. it's a human problem, no tech can dispel the chore. someone always has to be there, moderating
of course tooling can help immensely. the tooling shifts and manages the chore. that shift can be in good ways. also maybe unintentional bad ways
you know all this
i'm just laying it out so i can say:
on #bluesky, and on #mastodon, as you say, #blocklists create new terrible problems
i'm saying this tooling shift is a bad idea
william.maggosas if to demonstrate this, I can't see what you're replying to cause hachyderm blocks me.
my argument is we should have any rules we want for content on our servers, but only limit/defederate other servers for harassment (unwanted tagging) or illegal activity. like the decentralized web and email, don't limit their browsing but do help them with spam. the goal is a space as welcoming as possible. be open to connection but prevent activity that drives users away.
i got in a stupid shouting match with someone over a year ago. their server limited me
because i fucking fuckity fuck fuck swear too much. i'm bad meanie man, hurt fee fees
anyway after awhile we unblocked each other. we had nice interactions
now, we follow each other
that's human
what's inhuman?
i'm still limited on that server
fire and forget #moderation corrodes the #fediverse
suspends and limits should expire after awhile (apart from bigotry spam etc)
Ericka Simone@benroyce another moderation issue that pops up.
it's absolutely fine if a server goes "we don't like your behavior, we're limiting/ suspending you"
for classes of behavior well outside of bigotry, spam, fascism, geopolitical troll farm astroturfing, etc
the most common example being someone shoots their mouth off in a foul mood (if you're someone who has never done that i don't understand you)
but the suspend/ limit should fade
otherwise almost everyone is going to wind up suspended/ limited everywhere given enough time
excited for the mastodon rise@benroyce @ErickaSimone I got blocked by one my absolute favorite follows at either election time or when harris took over and I was predicting that that would not work out for us, and I still regret it and wish I could ask her to unblock me. :-(
that's happened to me as well
that's more complicated because with server moderation, you're dealing with general standards
but individuals?
they can block no one or block almost everyone, for whatever reason good or bad. that's just personal preference
it's easy to argue with moderation, hard to argue with personal preference
i can only speak for myself:
i occasionally go through my blocklist, and if i can't remember why i blocked someone i usually unblock them
@benroyce @ErickaSimone Yeah yeah, wasn't saying they're the same, but I guess it would also be nice for me to be able to choose a block that fades, I like that idea. Or like a 3 day 3 week 3 month 3 year reminder timer or something
yes! i absolutely feel that!
there's a hard block: "i never want to hear from this idiot again"
and then there should be a soft block: "i want to put you on ice for a week"
👏 👏 👏
that's a way to a far more human social media. because those are two real categories of disassociation we feel socially: "fuck you forever" and "let's just cool it for awhile"
there should be block options that reflect that
excellent idea
@benroyce @ErickaSimone it was your idea! :-) But yeah, that sounds really nice.
Parade du Grotesque 💀@benroyce @qkslvrwolf @ErickaSimone
Mute is here for that...
@ParadeGrotesque @qkslvrwolf @ErickaSimone
i confess ignorance, i've never used it
does mute user have a built in time limit?
@ParadeGrotesque @qkslvrwolf @ErickaSimone
interesting
this makes it seem like porting that code to block functionality would be quick and easy too
thank you
👀
@ParadeGrotesque @benroyce @ErickaSimone I don't really get mute, because I don't feel like one sided conversations in public are a good thing.
Like if I mute someone, and they just keep going off and responding to me, then everything they're saying is basically going out unanswered into the world.
Sure, maybe they'll get bored...or maybe they'll convince someone of some bullshit that I could've helped with because I wasn't responding.
@qkslvrwolf @ParadeGrotesque @ErickaSimone
yeah i never used it
i consider a mute more cruel than a block
with a block it's a hard honest "fuck you" that they know about
but a mute is almost sadistic in the way it treats someone silently and unknowing
maybe trolls deserve that
but trolls don't care, they are hijacking your comments for their bullshit agenda. a mute is fine for them
Vassil Nikolov | Васил НиколовRight.
I would also like a private counter for the times I have regretted reading someone's posts before deciding to maybe block or mute.
Log 🪵@benroyce @qkslvrwolf @ErickaSimone One can always add a note to someone's profile, as a reminder, like "posts cool mushroom pics" or "has public meltdowns" or "consistently funny shitposter" or "probably a Nazi" or "fun to follow but too weird to boost".
@log @qkslvrwolf @ErickaSimone
what is my note for Log...
let's see...
"Delusional disorder, believes they are an anthropomorphic piece of hardwood, convince them to get psychiatric help"
😂
(/s)
Josh the Blockaded@benroyce @log @qkslvrwolf @ErickaSimone My note for log:
“It’s big, it’s heavy, it’s wood; better than bad: it’s good.”
db0@benroyce @[email protected] @thisismissem Not all things are as fuzzy. There's plenty of people who deserve a permaban without any questions. Neonazis for example.
absolutely
i said "suspends and limits should expire after awhile (apart from bigotry spam etc)" but i said it like an after aside
to be more clear, hard radioactive red lines like fascist bigotry should mean your account is nuked for all time, period, hard suspend
that should not have been a little side comment of mine, that should be the upfront and center sentiment
thank you for setting it straight
Squirrel@benroyce @[email protected] @thisismissem Cursing censored in the age of live-streamed genocide.
Is this like the Broken Window theory of civility or something?
The whole material foundation is crumbling into the fucking sea... Enough of this re-arranging deck chairs on the goddamn Titanic for Christ's sake.
Sigh... anyway, I hear ya. That's ridiculous.
moderation on the fediverse should be clear (is mostly clear):
no fascism, bigotry, spam, etc
but everything else should remain untouched. i'm referring to speech that might piss you off, but doesn't cross any red lines
if not untouched, then cleaned up periodically
otherwise we fracture the whole fediverse
@benroyce @thisismissem Indeed. The mods on my instance are pretty good at keeping to the actual task if you are interested in adding a new instance to your repertoire.
if i ever move again i will remember! {hat tip}
Deb Nam-Krane@benroyce There are some things I see that offend me and even trigger me. I might block some people over it, but for many I let it slide. Because there's no *abuse* or even harassment, it's something that I think should be in the untouched category.
Buuuut maybe I can say that because I'm relatively privileged and not in as much danger as others. I don't know, and I think there isn't a right answer, which is why regular conversations about this are a good thing.
@dnkboston @resl @thisismissem
no argument. it's not one size fits all. and it remains that sometimes the best response... is simply no response
that's a good point, reply guys suck
and certainly for some communities this behavior is a pox and a plague that rises to the level of a need for hard suspends
thank you, i didn't think of it that way
@benroyce @thisismissem It is probably better to err on the side of pure gratitude to all fedi mods, after further reflection lol
yeah we all have complaints, and we voice them. then we get deeper insights in response from those in the trenches or who have dealt with the issue over a greater amount of time, and we realize the answers to our complaints aren't so simple
but that's ok, that's how we work through things
@benroyce @resl @thisismissem I think I would parenthetical this thought with:
For me personally, I'm not convinced that the end result of an experiment like Mastodon isn't a fractured fediverse, and that might actually be one of the local-optimum outcomes.
We've tried one global network with centralized moderation authority mitigated by individual national laws and norms. That's how we got Facebook. And Twitter. And even things like G+ and YouTube comments. it is entirely possible that the fail state of those is you can't apply one set of rules to eight billion people and expect to not be forever fighting your own userbase.
Slightly down chain, we've got Reddit, where the mothership has some minimum standards and subreddits can then apply their own atop that. And that mostly works until the minimum standards change and some subreddits burst into flame, melt down, or explode into each other in a shitpost frenzy.
And then over here we're on the Fediverse where nobody can force me to accept mastodon.social posts if I don't want to. At all.
I think a more connected fediverse is a stronger fediverse but there's definitely a limit and that's probably okay. In the limit, Truth Social is technically a fediverse node. The fact it is a completely isolated fediverse node is fine.
well said. i can't argue
maybe....
i still make the complaint that there is fracturing that is normal and acceptable due to assholes. and then there is fracturing that is more capricious
teasing apart the two is a gordian knot. so maybe the best response is "c'est la vie"
still, it would be nice to push back against some of the most egregious examples of "you're suspended just because i can" power tripping. but it is not easy defining that vs valid reasons
@benroyce @resl @thisismissem I think that's a good point. And I agree with you that the server-level filter of an individual user is a big lever (one I don't touch often enough to really have a good sense of its weight, since I'm over here on my dumb little mono-instance; personal bans of accounts and server-level bans of accounts are equivalent for me).
Hard to say what I could technologically change to address that. Were I running a big instance, maybe I'd have a personal policy of doing a review once a quarter to see if server-level bans are still sensible. With backoff; no need to review the Nazi bar with frequency to decide if it's still a Nazi bar.
On the other hand, I could also not because that costs me time and effort, and maybe the right answer is just "Hey, while we're in Arizona there's this great restaurant you should check out. I can't. I'm banned from it for something I did in 1986. It's a funny story really." 😉
⚡️Electric 🔻☭ Mood 🌩@benroyce @wjmaggos @thisismissem
"suspends and limits should expire after awhile (apart from bigotry spam etc)"
I've been on online spaces long enough to know mods will abuse that too and claim 'bigotry spam etc" if they wanna fuck with you
@electricmood @wjmaggos @thisismissem it's still better than the status quo. The status quo is permanent nuke rather than temporary suspend
@benroyce And also, the answer there probably doesn't mean "take the person who created / put you on that list to court & sue them"