Mastodawn

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 25, 2025

ID cards are bad. Very bad.

1. Once they exist it will become necessary to always carry it. If you don't you must have something to hide, etc.
2. They can't stop people working in the 'black economy' because people currently employing those working for cash don't care.
3. It is another attack on trans and NB people (very unlikely someone would be allowed to have multiple IDs)
4. Massive data loss of personal information is highly likely.
5. Who pays? Why should they?
6. Police state becomes more likely with having your ID inspected whenever a copper wants to harass someone, especially POC.
7. OTHER OPTIONS ALREADY EXIST!

ID cards are a very bad, very dangerous, very expensive, and very risky idea.

ps I'm not a 'Brit'. I'm British, or more specifically English!
#IDcards #PoliceStateUK #BritCard

Edzilla Sep 25, 2025

@AlisonW
I'm curious, as a Belgian with a mandatory ID card (and French, same situation), it's never felt like such a huge issue.
You can get your gender changed fairly easily and it is reflected on the ID card. and it makes identifying with online government services much easier. (think taxes, unemployment benefits, etc)
It has zero impact on taxes avoidance or anything like that but at least in Belgium it was never meant to so that's ok.

@edzilla @AlisonW

Same curiosity from a German perspective here - it is not mandatory to carry the ID card, but easy to do and good if you need proof of ID or proof of address (e.g. picking up a parcel, opening an account...)
Having lived in the UK for many years, I know that the driving licence is used there for the same purpose, but I find it discriminatory against people who don't have one. Never understood why the British are so against IDs.

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@edzilla @AlisonW
Also just checked: the German ID card doesn't specify gender - so why would you need multiple if you're trans / NB?

🔏 Matthias Wiesmann Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla @AlisonW plus de recent GDPR ruling pretty much says any information on an European ID card (including gender) must be changed according to the wishes of the person.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla
On that specific point, trans people don't tend to tell everyone all at once. They transition over a period of time. If you present differently at work and socially what happens when you get stopped and asked for ID?

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@AlisonW @edzilla

I guess exactly the same as in any other country without ID, when you have to show your driving licence or your passport.
What happens if trans people need to show proof of age when buying alcohol or going to a club?
I don't think an ID will improve any of those situations, but doesn't make them worse either IMHO.
Frequency and occasions of "Getting stopped and asked for ID" depends on laws and policing regs - not on existence of ID or not.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla
No age proof needed for alcohol or clubbing.

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@AlisonW @edzilla

Is that for you individually because you look old enough? I thought you're talking about UK/England where you absolutely can not buy alcohol under the age of 18.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla
*Allegedly*. The minimum age has always existed but I've rarely seen it applied (aka 'not'). Like purchasing cigarettes the theory and the practice are inconsistent. ymmv etc.

Bragg Sep 28, 2025

@AlisonW @cfy @edzilla I’m in my 30’s & got asked for ID just last week, in my 20’s I started paying for most stuff using Apple Pay but if I was going out for a drink or to buy alcohol I knew it was the only time I needed to take my wallet as there was a decent chance I’d get asked for ID. In my late 20’s I’d still get ID’d going into bars, at pubs & also remember it happening in a restaurant having a meal with my parents. A couple of years ago to pick up a 12 rated game from Argos I had to show an expired 25-30 (that I was too old to renew) before they’d hand over the game as they ridiculously have a challenge 25 policy on any age restricted item even when it’s double the original age.

Sorry that last bit almost went into a rant about how stupid Argos are.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 28, 2025

@JMBragg @cfy @edzilla
Back in the late 70s a friend who was 40 would occasionally get asked for proof of age. She was very short 🙁

Jon PENNYCOOK Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla @AlisonW I can imagine the British Government not learning any lessons from Germany - they will probably have too much sensitive information on the card/app itself, and make it really difficult to change anything.

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@jonpsp @edzilla @AlisonW
That is unfortunately possible - data protection laws in Germany are infinitely stricter than in UK.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 25, 2025

@jonpsp @cfy @edzilla @AlisonW The two problems with any "ID card" are

(1) It opens the door to a police state, the moment the government decides that you can be stopped on the street and arrested for failing to "produce your papers". (Like happened to me in France.)

(2) It's a one stop shop for identity thieves. At the moment to assume my identity and completely fuck up all aspects of my life someone would have to break into multiple systems: with an ID card that reduces to just one.

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@TimWardCam @jonpsp @edzilla @AlisonW
ad 1) a police state can be introduced with or without an ID. A police state can easily introduce IDs if they weren't there before - it's not a prerequisite and doesn't make it more or less likely. Police in a state without IDs can still arrest you and keep you until you've proven your identity.
ad 2) IDs make identity theft harder: more difficult to falsify than a bank statement or utility bill and IDs
/2

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@TimWardCam @jonpsp @edzilla @AlisonW

are not a single system that replaces all else. You still have to break into all the other systems as well, an ID does not give you unchecked access to all aspects of your life. You need to have it to open a bank account, but you can't access your bank account with your ID.
Online services require your ID plus a specialised app plus a six digit PIN - safer than a credit card.
Identity theft in Germany
/3

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@TimWardCam @jonpsp @edzilla @AlisonW
which has ID cards, seems to be less an issue than in UK, which doesn't have them.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @TimWardCam @jonpsp @edzilla
I used to have a Swiss bank card requiring a 6-digit PIN but sadly all banks I know of in the UK restrict customers to four digits. Much less secure.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @jonpsp @edzilla @AlisonW I disagree with you on both points.

Giacinto Boccia Sep 26, 2025

@TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @edzilla @AlisonW
It is just a transcript from the residents record with your picture for identification purposes.

Matt Hardy 3.11 for Workgroups Sep 26, 2025

@TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @edzilla @AlisonW regarding number 2. You could look at it from another viewpoint. As the multiple systems are not always the same, to protect against identity theft you need to protect multiple systems. If everything requires Digital ID then you only need to protect one. Of course centralising all efforts into one target means then when it breaks that's a bigger deal but you can't have everything.

CFy Sep 26, 2025

@technicaladept @TimWardCam @jonpsp @edzilla @AlisonW
I'd be very reluctant to create a single point of failure. Don't obviously know what the UK government is planning, but an ID per se is not a bad thing - depends on how you introduce it and what the safeguards are.

Jon PENNYCOOK Sep 26, 2025

@cfy @technicaladept @TimWardCam @edzilla @AlisonW It seems to be a digital ID, requiring a smartphone app, rather than a physical card - https://www.computerweekly.com/blog/Computer-Weekly-Editors-Blog/Controversy-ahead-the-many-challenges-facing-a-UK-government-national-digital-ID-scheme

Controversy ahead - the many challenges facing a UK government national digital ID scheme

It seems we are to expect some sort of announcement on digital identity at the forthcoming Labour conference. Briefings to select national newspapers have trailed the likelihood of prime minister ...

CFy Sep 26, 2025

@jonpsp @technicaladept @TimWardCam @edzilla @AlisonW
Very good article - thanks for sharing.

libUnderseaMonkey.so 🇪🇺Sep 26, 2025

@TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @edzilla @AlisonW

3) It's inevitably going to result not just in identity theft but personal data leakage. Got information about you that your employer/bank/insurer/etc isn't supposed to access and act on? Exactly how strong do you think those virtual guardrails are going to be?

Edzilla Sep 26, 2025

@underseamonkey
Again, why? The government already has all this information in a database somewhere, there's no reason for it to be any more or less secure. And if your employer/insurer requires a proof of ID, using a certificate based one rather than a utilities bill LOWERS the risk of ID theft, it does not increase it
@TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW

libUnderseaMonkey.so 🇪🇺Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW No, all that information is in a variety of places, dependent upon need and right to know. Focusing it in on a single data lake is asking for trouble.

Edzilla Sep 26, 2025

@underseamonkey @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW Why would it need to be in a single place? It's not required to make an ID card, either physical or digital. My belgian card is a physical card with a certificate signed by the state's certificate authority. There is no overarching database with everything about me in it.
That certificate can then be used to authenticate to the online taxes portal, the online benefits portal.
The chip on the card only contains the exact same things printed on it

libUnderseaMonkey.so 🇪🇺Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW And the thing is, the British government is both phenomenonally bad at this but also tends towards a centralising instinct. Other than the US, the worst place to implement an ID system as a citizen is the UK.

vicarvernon Sep 26, 2025

@underseamonkey @edzilla @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW quite a lot of identity information can already be in one place, as experienced with a recent data theft incident with a DBS certificate processor. A DBS certificate is mandatory if you work with children and vulnerable adults in the UK.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 27, 2025

@vicarvernon @underseamonkey @edzilla @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy
Yes, so we really shouldn't be trying to make such data theft even easier!

🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @underseamonkey @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW
best case senario the British government is going to pay a private company to run this. That company will not have serious oversight. The company will keep offering to collect more and more data in the name of "efficiency". They will under invest in security and safety and make sure the tax payer is left to bail them ou for fixing problems caused by their lack of investment. Because that's how we do things in the UK.
1/2

🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @underseamonkey @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW
Worst case senario Reform get elected next GE and use it to track and persecute minorities and anyone who disagrees with them.
2/2.

Edzilla Sep 26, 2025

@duckwhistle
Again, why would they need an ID card for that? Any government would already have that information.
You are already required to prove your identity in some situations, right? How do you do it currently?
@underseamonkey @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW

libUnderseaMonkey.so 🇪🇺Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @duckwhistle @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW Passport, driving license, two forms of utility bill, take your pick...

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 26, 2025

@underseamonkey @edzilla @duckwhistle @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW Today, it was knowing the address where my parents used to live. But that's Aviva for you.

Edzilla Sep 26, 2025

@underseamonkey
So what's the difference between your passport and an ID card?
@duckwhistle @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW

CFy Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @underseamonkey @duckwhistle @TimWardCam @jonpsp @AlisonW
Passport doesn't fit in your wallet and doesn't have your address, so can't be used as proof of address. That's why in the UK utility bills get elevated to official documents proving your address - impossible to falsify 🤪

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 26, 2025

@cfy @edzilla @underseamonkey @duckwhistle @jonpsp @AlisonW Once Upon A Time - not that long ago!! - some organisations only accepted paper utility bills, bank statements, etc, and didn't accept ones "downloaded from the internet". That's changed.

Jon PENNYCOOK Sep 26, 2025

@TimWardCam @cfy @edzilla @underseamonkey @duckwhistle @AlisonW going off on a complete tangent - a bank wrote me a letter saying I needed to bring photographic ID plus a letter from a reputable organisation (utility bill, bank statement etc) with my address. Obviously I took their own letter as proof of address.

In countries where you have to register with the Police or another Government body before you can receive post, this probably wouldn't happen.

libUnderseaMonkey.so 🇪🇺Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @duckwhistle @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW Your passport isn't electronic, it's voluntary, it's isolated to the passport office... shall I go on?

Edzilla Sep 26, 2025

@underseamonkey
You passport is electronic - apparently in the UK it's since 2010. It's also very much not isolated to the passport office - that's not how governments work. How do you think the passport office gets/checks your date of birth and other identifying information?
@duckwhistle @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW

libUnderseaMonkey.so 🇪🇺Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @duckwhistle @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW I'm gonna hang up here because there's no intention to engage with how the UK systems work.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @underseamonkey @duckwhistle @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW Because you supply a paper copy of your birth certificate with your passport application? Or is that no longer a thing?

🔶Mark Nicoll 3.5%🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🇬🇧🇪🇺🇺🇳Sep 26, 2025

@TimWardCam @edzilla @underseamonkey @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW
it was still a thing when I applied for both my kids first passports and they were both born after 2010. You don't need extra documents when renewing an in date passport as they already store all the necessary information.
Whilst the passport office does allow outside access to their database, the data isn't just freely available to every government department that wants to look at it.
But a universal ID, requires universal access.

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @underseamonkey @duckwhistle @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW The really really BIG difference is that you only NEED to have your passport with you when you're passing through a port - the clue is in the name, right?

And there are plenty of people who don't have passports because they don't need them - for whatever reason, they don't travel abroad.

And there are plenty of British citizens who don't have a British passport because they've been lucky enough to get a rather more useful EU one (so why bother to renew the British one, why pay twice for an inferior product?).

Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE Sep 26, 2025

@edzilla @duckwhistle @underseamonkey @jonpsp @cfy @AlisonW Well, the Trumpian approach, which Farridge is no doubt desperate to implement here, would be

* spot a brown person walking down the street
* ask them for their ID card
* whether or not they manage to produce one, and regardless of what it says, arrest them for failing to produce ID on demand
* nobody ever hears from them again.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 26, 2025

@duckwhistle @edzilla @underseamonkey @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy
Don't forget that history suggests that the private company getting the business *and all the data* will likely be American and so not subject to GDPR.

You can't change your biometrics (except with extreme surgery?)

h4nd / UntouchedCupOfTea Sep 27, 2025

@AlisonW @duckwhistle @edzilla @underseamonkey @TimWardCam @jonpsp @cfy

I guess absolutely everyone should use Ursula van der Leyden's fingerprints: https://gizmodo.com/german-hackers-publish-interior-ministers-fingerprint-t-373829

German Hackers Publish Interior Minister's Fingerprint to Protest Against Biometric IDs

A group of hackers has captured the fingerprints of the German Interior Minister as a protest against plans to use biometric data in e-passports. The

Gizmodo

Mrs Beanbag Sep 26, 2025

@jonpsp @cfy @edzilla @AlisonW since the recent supreme court judgement i wouldn't be surprised if these new cards outed all trans people to their employers

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 26, 2025

@mrsbeanbag @jonpsp @cfy @edzilla
Some politicians would see that as a good thing, I'm sure. Bastards. 😡

Mrs Beanbag Sep 26, 2025

@AlisonW @jonpsp @cfy @edzilla well yes, that was my point. wouldn't be surprised if that was, in fact, the entire reason for this. otherwise what sense does it make if an employer has to send someone who's government-issued ID says "female" into the gents toilets (or vice versa).

Steven Heywood Sep 28, 2025

@jonpsp @cfy @edzilla @AlisonW
All Whitehall IT projects are subject to scope creep at levels that wouldn't be acceptable or sustainable even elsewhere in the public sector so the likelihood of the digital ID creating a single point of failure has the additional risk that the security of the data will be compromised by the variety of uses applied but not designed for. And then further undermined by "We have all this data, we should do something with it," which also won't have been designed for by the policymakers (but sure as buttons will have been designed for by the tech companies being gifted all this data).

Bear in mind that this project involves the same system thinking and accountability that had subpostmasters jailed for a known systems glitch and spent the money on a new Transpennine rail system digging holes in the Cotswolds.

⁂ Fish Id Wardrobe Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla @AlisonW I think that eu governments have working checks and balances that to a certain extent stop abuse. we don't. history suggests we'll get the worst possible outcome from this.

I've already seen some eu folks point out that their card is not mandatory, or not digital-only, etc.

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@fishidwardrobe @edzilla @AlisonW
In Germany it is mandatory to possess an ID card (or alternatively a passport) but it's not mandatory to have it with you. It's not available as an electronic version (yet). But it does have online functions via NFC with a card reader or smartphone app plus PIN. Allows you to identify yourself online to government institutions and banks (e.g. state pension, opening a bank account, etc.)

𝔸𝕟𝕔𝕚𝕖𝕟𝕥 𝕊𝕠𝕦𝕟𝕕𝕤 🔉Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla @AlisonW

If government were totally efficient (and totally benicent) people might not mind so much ...

History: Much of Europe had to endure first Napoleon and then Hitler, but Brits did not, so being subordinated to “the state” feels objectionable.

(Not judging other jurisdictions; just trying to explain in a few words why I think compulsory ID is so objected to in UK)

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@ancientsounds @edzilla @AlisonW
Just don't understand why an ID is subordination. It helps me to prove who I am for official purposes and makes it harder for others to impersonate me and cause me harm.
British citizens subordinate themselve to the state exactly like other nations' citizens do: they accept having an ID number (social security number) and have mandatory taxes, laws, police, prisons.
Misuse by a malevolent state is not an ID thing.

𝔸𝕟𝕔𝕚𝕖𝕟𝕥 𝕊𝕠𝕦𝕟𝕕𝕤 🔉Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @edzilla @AlisonW

There is logic in what you say, but it's not a q. of logic; it's about habits, perceptions, and TRUST. It's the obligation to “present your papers” that is what's objected to, I think.

𝔸𝕟𝕔𝕚𝕖𝕟𝕥 𝕊𝕠𝕦𝕟𝕕𝕤 🔉Sep 25, 2025

Also, the fact that this is an issue here proves that Brits do *not* subject themselves to the state in the same way as in other countries. Heck, it's not even the same way in Germany, Switzerland, and Sweden, right?

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@ancientsounds
Brits subject themselves even to unelected monarchy - no, sorry, I don't buy it.
It's "an issue" because it's being debated for a possible introduction, whilst other countries had it for years and nobody wants to get rid of it, so no discussion.
Don't know the details of IDs in Switzerland and Sweden so can't compare, but think they're fairly similar across Europe, certainly in the EU.
Also Brits already subject themselves to ID-systems: you can't enter your
/2

CFy Sep 25, 2025

@ancientsounds
country without a passport and you can't drive a car without a driver's licence.
Driver's licence has all the downsides of an ID (name, photo, address, DOB and can be requested by authorities) without the benfits of an ID (available to all - including non-drivers, accepted as proof of identity and address e.g. to open a bank account)
If the intention of an ID is to misuse it, fight the misusing institution not the ID as they will find other ways.

AlisonW ♿🏳️‍🌈♾️Sep 25, 2025

@cfy @ancientsounds @edzilla
My social security number (called the National Insurance number) has no security implications but is only used for employment (taxation) and benefits. It only gets used with government services.
Although NI numbers are supposed to be unique, assigned when someone gets their first paid job, they're actually easy to fake as difficult to check.