Matt BlazeAug 31, 2025

Just for the record, Trump can’t do this. The Constitution is very clear that the “times, places, and manner“ of elections for federal office are determined by individual states (though can be altered by Congress).

The president simply has no role in US elections (except to sign into law or veto whatever election-related bills that congress might pass).

Show threadKarl AuerbachSep 1, 2025

@mattblaze Throw into the brew the situation a few years ago when states tried to require that presidential candidates publish tax returns and were shot down by courts saying that states can not modify the requirements to hold office.

Although that is not directly germane to the voter ID situation, it does reflect a policy that when it comes to election stuff, the Constitution occupies almost the entire space leaving little room for additional Federal or state regulation.

With regard to voter ID - that is an issue that is hard to oppose because it is not irrational. I believe the D's would be better off not opposing voter ID but, instead, using those resources to make sure that every likely D voter has a proper voter ID.

Show threadSteve BellovinSep 1, 2025
@karlauerbach @mattblaze Providing IDs to every voter is a really hard problem. But the Supreme Court has upheld the right of states to require it.
Show threadKarl AuerbachSep 1, 2025

@SteveBellovin @mattblaze I am far from having expertise in the art of issuing IDs. So I do not understand when you say "Providing IDs to every voter is a really hard problem."

??

(I do remember back when Dave Kaufman and I were trying to figure out operating system access control matrices that we always seemed to back into the question of "how do we know who the actor is?" [Especially when a person or thing was acting as an agent with delegated authorities from another.])

I also keep bumping into the old national ID card issue - and the fears that a person could be "vanished" by a government agency. But then again, we seem to be moving pretty close to a national ID card with things like SecureID driver's licenses.

Show threadNorman Wilson
@karlauerbach @SteveBellovin @mattblaze Are you assuming everyone has a driving license? That's not a sensible assumption.
Sep 1, 2025 at 6:03amWeb
Show threadKarl AuerbachSep 1, 2025

@oclsc @SteveBellovin @mattblaze I am not making that assumption. My comment about SecureID is intended to reflect that national ID cards are sneaking up on us.

BTW, as far as I know, many (perhaps most?) will issue ID cards to those who can't get (or do not want) a driver's license. I'm not sure whether there is a SecureID version of those.

Show threadNorman WilsonSep 1, 2025

@karlauerbach @SteveBellovin @mattblaze In my salad days, when I lived in the States and the President was a B-list actor with dementia, it was a real nuisance not to have a photo ID, eg when paying by cheque (remember that?). I had a non-driver ID from California DMV for a while, but that seemed stupid. Then I attended a conference in Toronto so I got a passport, and thereafter carried that.

But in recent decades I can hardly remember being asked for ID except when crossing borders or checking into US hotels. (The latter seems new since the Reagan years--maybe it started after 9/11?)

One exception is when voting in Canada but the requirements are quite loose--provincial health card and a utility bill will do. Another recent one: when I signed my will, lawyer wanted to see ID for obvious reasons. I still had my decades-old, rather ratty Canadian citizenship card in my wallet, and that was enough. If I'd known she was going to ask I'd have brought my passport.

But the need now is annual or less, not daily.

Show threadKarl AuerbachSep 1, 2025

@oclsc @SteveBellovin @mattblaze Some states in the US are allowing drivers licenses to be inserted into the Apple iPhone Wallet. I've done it. So far I have not used it.

Some stores (such as cannabis stores) around here want (or rather, require) a scan of the barcode on the back of the California driver's license.

Show threadGarrett WollmanSep 1, 2025
@karlauerbach @oclsc @SteveBellovin @mattblaze And famously, you need to present ID at a pharmacy to buy the only decongestant that works, because the government is afraid you'll turn it into the chemically close relative methamphetamine. Which identity is reported to the state and kept in a database to ensure you don't buy "too much" by visiting multiple pharmacies — exactly the sort of scenario anti-universal-ID people worry about. It's already here, for sure.
Show threadNorman WilsonSep 2, 2025
@wollman @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin @mattblaze I forgot about that! Probably because it doesn't happen in Canada. Pseudoephedrine is kept behind the counter here but there's no ID ritual.
I remember once buying some pseudoephedrine while travelling in the States. I had my US passport with me (of course, I'd crossed the border) so I offered that as ID, but the pharmacist needed a ZIP code too. I think they tried 00000 and that worked. I do remember that they didn't need to be pushed to find an answer, they wanted to help.
Show threadSteve BellovinSep 1, 2025
@karlauerbach @oclsc @mattblaze There are interesting Fourth Amendment issues about how much access you've granted a police officer to whom you show your phone-resident license…
Show threadStephen ThomasSep 2, 2025
@SteveBellovin @karlauerbach @oclsc @mattblaze With an iPhone you don’t have to show them anything. All the drivers license info (and only drivers license info) can be read via NFC using a device law enforcement possesses. You don’t even have to unlock your phone. Of course if the officer insists that you unlock it anyway, you have a choice to make
Show threadAdam Shostack  Sep 2, 2025
@stephen_thomas @SteveBellovin @karlauerbach @oclsc @mattblaze Can you clarify what the authentication mechanism is for “a device law enforcement possesses “? Is there a “law enforcement pki” that issues authorization keys? How are those managed if a device is stolen?
Show threadStephen ThomasSep 2, 2025
@adamshostack No. But it works much the same as ApplePay, so perhaps the details are the same or at least similar
Show threadRaven667Sep 2, 2025
@adamshostack @stephen_thomas I know nothing about the Apple implementation of this feature, but I imagine from the law enforcement perspective, they probably didn't think about the security of the phone-owner at all and figured if they could paw through your wallet to extract your ID then having your ID shared in the clear over NFC, or with very minimal auth using PKI without any serious CRL, is probably also fine. Isn't there also RFID in passports with the same kind of data, which I believe can be read from a longer range with minimal equipment, and definitely doesn't have auth.
Show threadStephen ThomasSep 2, 2025
@raven667 @adamshostack An advantage of the phone (over a passport) is that the phone’s owner has control over when the NFC is active. The owner has to double click the side button and then biometricly authenticate themselves before the NFC data can be read.
Show threadPandaNinjasSep 5, 2025
@raven667 @adamshostack @stephen_thomas There is no auth to read data off of passports, but it does require knowing the date of birth, expiration date, and passport number on the passport (which is on the MRZ of the passport and why automated passport scanners also have cameras to read the MRZ). The combination of all of these for a American passport is roughly 60 bits, which is a questionable amount of security but is 'enough'. For some other countries (like Dutch passports), there have been attacks in the past because of predictable passport numbers
Show threadKarl AuerbachSep 2, 2025

@SteveBellovin @oclsc @mattblaze Apple's documentation says that it tells you what data will be transferred before you do the double-click to allow the transfer.

I've never used the iPhone based drivers license thing so I can't attest to the accuracy of the documentation.

Show threadSteve BellovinSep 2, 2025
@karlauerbach @oclsc @mattblaze There are different categories of things in the wallet. For paying a fare on some transit systems, including in New York City, I don't have to click anything—I have a credit card designated for "transit" and the option set to allow payments. I also don't have to click anything for my Georgetown ID (though I have an Apple watch, so maybe there's an auto-unlock). For other credit card payments, I have to not just double-click but unlock the phone, though that only unlocks the wallet. Of course, what is in the wallet may itself be revelatory.
Show threadGarrett WollmanSep 1, 2025
@oclsc @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin @mattblaze I've always been asked to present my passport checking into a foreign hotel, and in the countries I've visited hoteliers are required to record the identity of all guests, as a part of a more general civil registration system, even if someone else is paying. (Longer term visitors/renters must register with the local police.)
Show threadMatt BlazeSep 1, 2025
@wollman @oclsc @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin The problem with generalizing from things like this ("I need an ID to check in to a hotel, why not to vote?") is that the effects depend on different things. The fact that hotel guests (a demographic that doesn't include everyone eligible to vote in the US) generally have ID doesn't mean all voters do or easily could obtain one. And adding a requirement without considering those who might be disenfranchised by it changes the electorate.
Show threadMatt BlazeSep 1, 2025
@wollman @oclsc @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin I don't think anyone has a problem with the goal of positively identifying voters. The question is how to do so *in our existing environment* without disenfranchising people.
Show threadMatt BlazeSep 1, 2025
@wollman @oclsc @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin In most European countries, there are national ID cards and current registries of citizens and residents. The US is unusual in not having either. Not only is there no single universal ID that all citizens can be assumed to have, there's no organic list of voters - we have to explicitly register to vote, as a separate act from other civic functions.
Show threadGarrett WollmanSep 1, 2025
@mattblaze @oclsc @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin yes, I am aware of all of these things, I was responding to Norman's post about where he has needed to present ID recently. (Which is not much different from my own.) Happy to remove you from the subthread if that is your preference.
Show threadMatt BlazeSep 1, 2025
@wollman @oclsc @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin No worries. I'm just pointing out that extrapolating from this for election purposes isn't easy.
Show threadNorman WilsonSep 2, 2025
@mattblaze @wollman @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin Canada is like the US in having no national ID card.
Voter registration used to be done afresh for every election. Enumerators would go door to door to make up the list. I don't know whether they verified citizenship somehow--system changed before I naturalized and became eligible to vote here. It was an attractive job to students.
Now there are permanent Registers of Voters, managed separately (I think) for federal and provincial elections. (The latter is used for municipal elections too.) I forget how I got on, though income-tax returns have checkboxes for `I am a Canadian citizen' and `Revenue Canada is allowed to give my info to Elections Canada for their list.'
There are also polling-place ID requirements but they are not particularly onerous for those of fixed abode (homeless people have a harder time). The focus is more verifying address than photos. It is possible for someone with proper ID at the same polling station to vouch for you.
Show threadNorman WilsonSep 2, 2025
@wollman @karlauerbach @SteveBellovin @mattblaze When I lived in the US and occasionally visited Canada I don't remember being asked for a passport or other ID. When I moved to Canada 35 years ago, I don't think US visits required photo ID at hotels. It changed more recently.
Show threadSteve BellovinSep 2, 2025
@oclsc @wollman @karlauerbach @mattblaze Border crossing rituals and requirements between the US and Canada have definitely become more formal in recent years. Way back when, all Canada cared about was whether the US would let you back in, and a driver's license was seen as good enough. There are still special ways to cross that border by land, but I've never bothered—I have a passport anyway, so I just use it.
But I did have an amusing experience about 20 years ago. On a cruise ship shore excursion in Alaska, we took the White Pass & Yukon Railroad into Canada, then basically coasted back down the mountain. (Yes, the bikes had heavy-duty brakes…) Going into Canada, there were full border checks of passports, etc. Coming back to the US, though, was easy—the border guards knew the excursion guides, and simply settled for a count of people against the number of passports the guides held. Quite the opposite of what I expected!
Show threadKarl AuerbachSep 2, 2025
@SteveBellovin @oclsc @wollman @mattblaze There are ski areas in the Alps where, before the EU effectively eliminated border crossings, where one had to take a passport while skiing.