Dr Emma Hodcroft Jul 4
Louder for the people in the back 📢
Show threadxbezdickJul 4
@firefoxx66 I wouldn't say people in Europe take it that way. Protests and civil disobedience is normal part of democracy. I still have somewhere my symbolic fine for blocking neo-nazi march in Czechia where the judge said I did morally correct thing but broke the law. Sometimes I wish we could go back to the old ways of just throwing the corrupt government out of window... something people in US should consider as it's not like far-right are the only ones who can storm the Capitol.
Show threadundead enby of the apocalypse
@firefoxx66 @xbezdick that doesn’t really align with my experience. I’ve seen people pepper sprayed or pulled out of a protest for doing nothing except being there when a cop is in a bad mood. There absolutely is a lot of repression targeting civil disobedience here.
Jul 7 at 4:52amWeb
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Dr Emma Hodcroft Jul 4
Louder for the people in the back 📢
Show threadZorroJul 4
@firefoxx66 That is clever, what's the source?
Show threadChristian StadelmannJul 4
@zorrobandito @firefoxx66 Source: https://www.tumblr.com/quasi-normalcy/103710917110/black-culture-stop-demonizing
Reblog by @quasi-normalcy · 1 image

💬 43  🔁 100581  ❤️ 74362 · The main contradiction of liberal democracy is that it has largely been shaped through a history of various forms of illegal civil disobedience against entrenched power s…

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Show threadJhooperJul 4

@genodeftest @zorrobandito @firefoxx66 Riots are always against the best interest of those controlling the media. We need to start controlling the message better to get support.

Before anyone puts words in my mouth, I don't mean "stop protests", I mean not letting the media dictate what it means or what's happening.

Show thread無 MuJul 7
@jhooper
We're never going to have any control over the oligarch media. We don’t necessarily need more support. Maybe more friends. We're not in a debate of ideas although propaganda does seem to win the masses to counterinsurgency.
@genodeftest @zorrobandito @firefoxx66
Show threadAnders HovmöllerJul 5
@genodeftest @zorrobandito @firefoxx66 Without rebellion we would also not have had the Soviet Union and The Republic of Iran. The details matter. A lot.
Show threadMorgan ⚧️Jul 4
@zorrobandito @firefoxx66 quasi-normalcy on Tumblr
Show threadCassandrichJul 5
@raphaelmorgan @zorrobandito @firefoxx66 But it's stylized to look like AI slop... so is it a real post by that person or slop generated to look like that was the source?
Show threadDr Emma Hodcroft Jul 7
@dalias @raphaelmorgan @zorrobandito Not sure what you mean by it being stylized to look like AI? This is a screenshot of a tumbler post that was circulating before AI became common (originally posted 2014)
https://www.tumblr.com/quasi-normalcy/103710917110/black-culture-stop-demonizing
Reblog by @quasi-normalcy · 1 image

💬 43  🔁 100581  ❤️ 74362 · The main contradiction of liberal democracy is that it has largely been shaped through a history of various forms of illegal civil disobedience against entrenched power s…

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Show threadCassandrichJul 7
@firefoxx66 @raphaelmorgan @zorrobandito The way neither the text nor background are a solid color but look like a photograph of a print on old paper, but they'd perfectly square to the view like a screenshot. It's a common format out of "AI" image generators.
Show threadCassandrichJul 7
@firefoxx66 @raphaelmorgan @zorrobandito Thanks for citation.
Show threadunpilotedlandmassJul 4
@firefoxx66 and don't forget that even when things are changed the "right way" (according to institutionalists), it often required a lot of disobedience before the institutions step in and get all the credit. We love to celebrate Loving v. Virginia as the system working as it should to protect human rights... but forget the fact that Mildred and Richard Loving had to be charged with a felony and exiled from their home state for the case to even appear before the court. The Supreme Court initially rejected a challenge to Connecticut's anti-birth control law because it had never been enforced (Poe v. Ullman)... so Estelle Griswold opened a clinic in New Haven and openly admitted to the police that she was intending to break the law. After she was arrested, the court was THEN willing to step in and declare the law unconstitutional. So anytime someone says that we should do it the "right way" and let the process do its thing, EVEN the "right way" requires someone brave enough to break the law.
Show threadDr Emma Hodcroft Jul 7
@unpilotedlandmass Excellent examples and great way to show that it's often very difficult to expect change while also demanding that no one should consider breaking the law to achieve it (unfortunately). [Important for casual readers/screenshots: this is not the same as saying all change requires law-breaking or violence.] Demanding everyone stay calm is often a soft way to prevent any change.
Show threadxbezdickJul 4
@firefoxx66 I wouldn't say people in Europe take it that way. Protests and civil disobedience is normal part of democracy. I still have somewhere my symbolic fine for blocking neo-nazi march in Czechia where the judge said I did morally correct thing but broke the law. Sometimes I wish we could go back to the old ways of just throwing the corrupt government out of window... something people in US should consider as it's not like far-right are the only ones who can storm the Capitol.
Show threadeconadsJul 4
@xbezdick @firefoxx66
Europe is a big place. France yeah sure, I saw you looking at my pension in a speculative way, I'm going to fuck up that shit. UK oh we're going to jail climate protesters and not allow them to mention climate change in their defence.
Show threadxbezdickJul 4
@econads @firefoxx66 lol imagine Macron pulling 10% of the shit Trump is doing.
Show threadFleshJul 4
@xbezdick @firefoxx66 To be fair, they are the only ones allowed to storm the Capitol.
Show threadundead enby of the apocalypseJul 7
@firefoxx66 @xbezdick that doesn’t really align with my experience. I’ve seen people pepper sprayed or pulled out of a protest for doing nothing except being there when a cop is in a bad mood. There absolutely is a lot of repression targeting civil disobedience here.
Show threadDr Emma Hodcroft Jul 7
@xbezdick I can't speak for all of Europe but I do worry that some governments (UK is one I follow closely) are indeed increasing pressure to stop protests and civil disobedience.
Show threadJacob Christian Munch-AndersenJul 4

@firefoxx66 Closely correlated is the belief that Democracy is done evolving.

Clearly a system where everyone have to delegate their part of the power to a different person, possibly with very few such delegates that one can realistically choose from, under the threat that if your choice isn't popular enough your vote will simply be ignored, and where those delegates are free to just ignore everything they promised in order to get your vote in the first place, is the best one can imagine!

Show threadAaronJul 4
@NohatCoder @firefoxx66 We should approach it as an engineering problem with a well-defined set of requirements based on the things that the stakeholders -- all those affected -- actually value, instead of assuming it's a solved problem and refusing further enhancements.
Show threadJacob Christian Munch-AndersenJul 4
@hosford42 @firefoxx66 It is engineering, it is mathematics, it is sociology, it is psychology, it is statistics, it is game theory, and maybe it is also something that I didn't think of. The set of requirements is definitely not well defined, but we will for certain have to compromise on some of them. Creating something better than what we have got is easy, creating something good is difficult, and convincing everybody to adopt the new system is downright impossible.
Show threadJacob Christian Munch-AndersenJul 4
@hosford42 @firefoxx66 I for one am a great believer of what I have dubbed fractional democracy, the idea that instead of holding a massive popular vote, a small fraction of the population is randomly selected to vote on the matter, thus way more issues can be voted on by the public. The biggest issue with this is that the random part makes most people perceive the system as unfair, despite it being way fairer than any other practical system that I know of.
Show threadAaronJul 4

@NohatCoder @firefoxx66

@davevolek has some interesting ideas on how to build a bottom-up democratic government (Tiered Democratic Governance). I think it's a pretty solid idea.

There's also a lot of work that has been put into alternative methods of voting similar to what you mention, ranging from ranked-choice voting all the way back to sortition (as practiced in ancient Athens).

Defining requirements is more about the end goals than the engineering techniques used to meet them. What do we want our system to accomplish? Currently, we have a system that produces a tyranny of the majority. There are ways to make democracy even more inclusive. The term I use for these, collectively, is proportional representation. This is when the system grants power to the constituents in proportion to their numbers, rather than having a strict cutoff when plurality or majority is reached.

Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Most European countries have PR elections and legislatures. But they still have their issues related to the 12 limitations.

The TDG is not another version of western democracy. It has no political parties.

When Europe moved from fuedalism to democracy, this was a big jump for the better. When a nation moves from western democracy to the TDG, it will be just as big of a jump.

Show threadJacob Christian Munch-AndersenJul 4
@davevolek @hosford42 @firefoxx66 Sounds like you reinvented Soviet Democracy.
Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@NohatCoder @hosford42 @firefoxx66

"Soviet democracy" is a misnomer. The soviet elections were rigged to support the Politburo.

TDG elections will be more organic.

Show threadAaronJul 4

@davevolek It would be way more convincing to explain what sets it apart, specifically, and not just say it will be different.

@NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Communists had one party. The TDG has no parties.

Communists had an ideology. The TDG has open minds.

Communists engaged in power struggles. The TDG elections have people move in, out, up, down, and around.

Maybe 5% of the citizens were allowed to vote in the communist election. Everyone can vote in TDG elections.

Show threadJacob Christian Munch-AndersenJul 4
@davevolek @hosford42 @firefoxx66 Soviet Democracy is not the USSR, it is a very specific set of ideas that were implemented during and after the Russian revolution. There is some debate around how long it lasted as despotism gradually took over, but by WW2 it is clear that the Soviet system existed in name only.
Show threadAaronJul 4

@NohatCoder @davevolek @firefoxx66

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy

Soviet democracy - Wikipedia

Show threadAaronJul 4

@NohatCoder @davevolek @firefoxx66

"In post-revolutionary Russia local workers' soviets would elect representatives that go on to form regional soviets, which in turn elect representatives that form higher soviets, and so on up to the Congress of Soviets."

Show threadAaronJul 4
@NohatCoder @davevolek @firefoxx66 Reading some of the history behind it, I am left wondering whether it was particularly prone to authoritarian coups, or if it was simply due to the circumstances of the times.
Show threadAaronJul 4
@NohatCoder @davevolek @firefoxx66 One important distinction I see is that it seems to have been predicated on being a worker, whereas TDM is predicated upon locality/neighborhoods. I think any modern system would have to embrace the existence of disabled people and our right to exist and participate, or it would never be adopted.
Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Everyone gets to vote in the TDG.

But instead of voting on charisma, issues, or self interest, the TDG teaches voters to look more at "good character" and "capacity for governance."

It will take some time to build that culture. Maybe five years.

Show threadAaronJul 4

@davevolek What are your thoughts on the stability question? If the system is, in actuality, more prone to power accumulation at the higher levels, how can this be countered? Fewer tiers? Some other mechanism?

What are your thoughts on a tiered direct democracy? I.e. a location-based hierarchical organization still exists, but people have direct involvement at every level rather than electing representatives. So, for example, all people in a city would vote directly on city questions, and likewise for state and nation, preserving the locality of governance.

@NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

The TDG must cast aside power accumulation if it is to work. But this is easier said than done. So the TDG needs to be built outside the current system that is full of power accumulators.

The power accumulators will not be insterested in the early TDG. So the TDG can build the good culture without the bad culture in the picture.

When the TDG becomes better known, anyone with power accumulation tendencies will not be voted for.

Show threadDave VolekJul 9

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Sorry, I just noticed your two questions.

I'm not sure what the "stability question" is about. So, I shall refrain from commenting.

About 30 years, I did some study with direct democracy--and concluded it would not be a good way for future governance. Sorry, most of us won't spend the time to analyze all the issues to cast a wise collective vote, like whether our sanitation department is running well or not.

Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

The theory was well thought out. But when power accumulation instincts kick in, that theory no longer works.

Show threadAaronJul 4
@davevolek @NohatCoder @firefoxx66 There is no substitute for participation and vigilance, no matter what system is in place.
Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

"Participation and vigilance" are buzzwords designed to cast blame on those who do not participate or watch. For example, do you watch your local sanitation department to ensure it is operating honestly and efficiently?

In a well functioning western democracy, there are checks in place where only a few people need watch closely. While this seem to be eroding, the TDG will be better able to set up systems of vigilance.

Show threadAaronJul 4
@davevolek @NohatCoder @firefoxx66 They aren't buzzwords to me. Sure, they might be used as excuses for a bad system, but that doesn't negate their actual importance in maintaining a good one. It's the same principle as with physical health. If you neglect it, it will deteriorate, and you won't catch it till it's too late. Maybe add social health as the third item after physical and mental health as something we must always prioritize.
Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

Let me elaborate.

Is your local sanitation system (sewers and garbage pickup) running well?

Are contracts awarded fairly? Or is there graft?

Are employees treated well and fairly? Are they paid a decent wage?

Is the department looking for efficiencies, like seeing what other districts are doing. Or is the department a bastion of middle managers earning big salaries and inflexible to try new ways.

Are you vigilant in these matters?

Show threadAaronJul 4
@davevolek @NohatCoder @firefoxx66 Not in the mundane stuff, no. In the power-oriented decisions, yes.
Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

The political parties are not going to allow you in their back rooms-----unless you have somehow climbed high in the party hierarchy.

So we will never know why they do the things they do. What they say in public is not what they said in private. There may be good reasons for this discrepancy, but often there are sinister reasons.

The trust is not there.

1/2

Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@hosford42 @NohatCoder @firefoxx66

So there's a Catch 22. We on the outside could be more vigilant, but likely we will not find the truth behind the decision.

The top tier of the TDG will be a lot more trustworthy. We might not like some its decisions, but we believe the issue was discussed from different angles and no corruption was involved. The top tier had a difficult decision to make--and made it. They did their best. Let's move on.

Trust. That's the key

2/2

Show threadJacob Christian Munch-AndersenJul 4
@davevolek @hosford42 @firefoxx66 I don't think it is fair to conclude that it is a bad system simply because it failed in Russia, but it does have some issues that make me question the viability. Putting everyone in a local assembly and asking them to stay ajour with the business of governing is a massive amount of extra work. Electing someone, who elects someone etc. quickly turns into people having no idea where their vote went, and I think that contributed to the failure in Russia.
Show threadDave VolekJul 4

@NohatCoder @hosford42 @firefoxx66

In the future TDG, many people will be content to leave governance to someone else. But their vote is still quite important to find those people with a flair for TDG governance.

And if those people with TDG flair get too full of themselves, the TDG elections will cast them aside. The TDG needs to learn how to cast our power-accumulation instinct aside.

Show threadColin from Edinburgh, OklahomaJul 4
@NohatCoder @firefoxx66
Read Aristotle on the inevitable fate of democracy.
Show threadPaul HealeyJul 4
@firefoxx66 As far as that concerns ultras fascist collaborators; bought and paid for by transnational corporations non-renewable production of ecocide, like too many of Earth’s governments, that is a hole in one! ⛳️ #FascistCultsAreDope #OligarchsEcocide
#DeathCultSlaves #TheFederation #RepublicsSovereigntyFirst #NoOligarchsNoUltras #ThePrimeDirective
Show threadAaronJul 4

@firefoxx66

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

-- Thomas Jefferson

The irony of right-wingers and libertarians quoting Jefferson on this but missing the point completely...

Show threadRinostarGamesJul 4
@firefoxx66 I think it has more to do with needing to feed yourself and loved ones and not wanting to get shot in the face then it has to do with justifiableness. People have to be seriously pushed past that point and the sad part is when they are it's because the violence is already so great that you might as well fight if you're just going to die anyway.
Show threadDr Emma Hodcroft Jul 7

@RinostarGames civil disobedience has a lot of different levels - it's totally fair that many people can't afford to risk being arrested, but support rather than condemnation goes a long way too.

Though not covered by the original post, I also feel like a lot of people have been convinced that even *legal* civil disobedience (like protesting) is unruly and radical.

Show threadOrion (he/him)Jul 4
@firefoxx66 Yup. This is liberalism. "It's great that we worked so hard to improve so that the present is not fixed." Liberalism, as practiced, is actually pretty conservative.
Show threadKent Navalesi ☕️Jul 4

@firefoxx66
Funny, I drafted this as a reply to something else. Posting here instead:

I think civil disobedience has become somewhat taboo in the Trump era, as though it somehow crosses the line of civility. But back in the 90s, even my conservative Christian private school taught civil disobedience in history classes as the correct and good alternative to violent protest.

So yeah, do with that what you will.

Show threadDr Emma Hodcroft Jul 7

@KentNavalesi I also believe that it's really surprising how much the average person in the US seems to view protests & marches as something very scary and radical, rather than a way to convey your feelings to power structures.

It's a very effective way to neuter a population. I have to admit - given the general American persona I didn't think it would have been so effective.

Show threadKent Navalesi ☕️Jul 7
@firefoxx66
Agreed. People seem more docile and conformist than they used to be.
Show threadCeleste Ryder 🐾 🐀🏳️‍🌈Jul 4
@firefoxx66 Tumblr is a fire pit, but it’s my fire pit, and posts such as this one are why!
Show threadRobin BartonJul 4
@firefoxx66 That is an excellent point. Thank you
Show threadElara WestinJul 5
@firefoxx66 Unfortunately almost every political system is shaped by some form of illegal acting. Wether you conquer a country, establish your new state within the borders of old ones or commit civil disobedience, it's all illegal when it's established...
Show threadvruzJul 5

@firefoxx66

The main contradiction of liberal democracy is that we can have social liberties without any economic liberty at all.