/etc witchi sure wish matrix was fucking usable
matrix makes me feel insane every time i think about it because the protocol is impossible to write new client code for so you get one of like five clients to choose from, of which the flagship can’t figure out how to stay in business or stop random regressions from happening release-to-release, and basic features you take for granted in discord/slack either don’t exist or have only just now passed the standards committee after a decade
i am sent a video, i cannot view it in element on my web browser, i have to open fluffychat on my phone, which does not decrypt notifications _even for unencrypted messages_ i am going to Fucking Lose It at this ecosystem
there is no fixing matrix at this point. learn lessons from it and build something new and move on. if only we had a chat ecosystem to discuss such a project on oh wait half the people with an interest in doing this won’t use anything else not even irc
if you are building a chat ecosystem here some basic deisgn rules you need to follow
1. no jank. the server needs to do all of the heavy lifting so that client applications can work smoothly. that means gnarly SQL queries and image/video transcoding for wide device support and to properly support a reduce motion setting for GIFs. you are not allowed to have a "dumb" server that simply glues clients together
1a. this means if you're doing e2e encryption it's gotta be well-designed from the start
i bring up reduce motion support under "jank" because matrix ostensibly has this at the protocol level and element ostensibly supports it, and yet about once a month at work someone posts an animated GIF that element animates despite my preferences. i don't even know how to file a bug because i don't know what's at fault.
"no jank" as a design rule also makes things more reliable on bad connections. there's a dead spot on my mobile provider through an area i walk through a lot; discord is marginally usable but no matrix client has ever succeeded in that zone. clients have to be smart about what they're fetching and not make a hundred requests that all fight each other for the tin can on a string i'm apparently holding
in conclusion please give me 50 million dollars to hire a bunch of trans people and give them healthcare so they can build a matrix/discord competitor that people actually want to use.
we won’t make your money back but we’ll put it to a better use than anyone else ever has.
well this thread has escaped containment so i give it 3 hours before a core matrix dev tries to fight me in the mastodon parking lot
eta@iliana "why are you being so mean? :( :("
justJanne@iliana btw, I made an "unable to decrypt" sticker (CC-BY-SA). You can usually find them at the sticker exchange of most chaos events, but you might want to print some yourself.
https://github.com/justjanne/stickers/blob/main/designs%2Funable%20to%20decrypt.svg
Local Dad, Ben Hamill@iliana The other thing that kills me about Matrix is… does it actually need the federation at all??? It feels like a lot of complexity for very marginal benefit. I feel like you could do a bunch of little chat servers with rooms and posts and shit all “centralized” (e.g. the equivalent to a Discord “server” and a Slack “team” would be on one server of cluster of servers) and just have federated identity so that people don’t have to sign up on a ton of servers. Like, OpenID or some shit.
hyratel@benhamill @iliana at what point do we bite the bullet and go back to IRC with shiny dExtensions? I'm fairly confident a modern IRC client could do 90% of discord's positive featureset. the big one that I'm not sure about though is server icons. I know IRC has a filesend API function (I was never able to get it to work back when) so that could be used server to client but that requires support on both ends while also being able to gracefully fail: client doesn't support it, then it ignores the server's "I can do this" message. That's IRC's big API-level keystone feature: It's based around "I can do this" statements from the server and it's up to the client to follow-up with a "Please do this" message
Simon Ser
Natasha Nox 🇺🇦🇵🇸@benhamill @iliana There really only is one thing of added complexity over a more "classical" federated approach that I would strongly vote for, and that is to code the protocol in a way it's compatible / easily adaptable to Multicast from the start (see @librecast). You may even convince @dentangle to become a project advisor if there really was a team building a Matrix successor with it. 😉
Would argue this is part of proper future-proofing, not like whatever unicorn-stuff Matrix is doing...
Navi 
@benhamill @iliana tbh, i see the benefit in terms of "you only actually need to log into one client and have everything available". If the federated identity could be used to make this happen to, then that also becomes a non-issue very fast.
Mae@benhamill @iliana xmpp is a nice middle ground imo(it has some other issues, that might or might not be possible to address though)
@Mae @iliana You know, that's a good point. It's been ages since I looked at that protocol and when I did I definitely didn't have in mind the same kinds of user interactions that I am talking about here. Maybe there would be a reasonable way to use XMPP for message passing and use something else to organize "servers" and "channels".
I mean—also irc exists, but it is… not what I'm looking for in a number of ways.
Russ SharekI've been living in a combination of xmpp and deltachat groups recently, and both are getting the job done reasonably well for smaller groups.
(I assume they can handle larger groups, but it's outside my experience)
The ux of the deltachat clients is a lot smoother, and I've gotten several technically unsavvy friends happily using it.
FoolishOwl@RussSharek @benhamill @Mae @iliana Nominally I've had XMPP accounts for decades, but the few times I've ever tried to chat with anyone using it, it broke -- connections dropping, different clients complaining about encryption.
@foolishowl @benhamill @Mae @iliana
While I agree xmpp can be flaky, I've only seen encryption glitches with omemo in group chats.
@RussSharek @foolishowl @Mae @iliana Is "group chats" and "groups", like, "a bunch of people all talking together in one group" like a group text chain? Or are there provisions in these tools for, like, a "server" with "channels" and such?
@benhamill @foolishowl @Mae @iliana
In the case of xmpp, there are 1to1 chats and group chats.
In deltachat, making new profiles and 'rooms' is really easy, like adding/removing people to a group email.
Happy to demo either if you want someone to explore with.
Mica 
@iliana tbh is anyone else making they money back?
Ellyse@iliana i agree that matrix and element haven’t been great experiences. i haven’t looked at the actual protocol, so im guessing you’re right. a federated e2e chat system would be cool.
6874@iliana hiring a bunch of trans entities, accommodation and catering, unlimited access to caffeine and adhd medication, blåhaj everywhere
and most importantly: a strong project leader (who knows what the project is, believes and understands the rest of the team)
and most importantly: a strong project leader (who knows what the project is, believes and understands the rest of the team)
Dormouse@iliana take those people, assemble a guard and I will give you the money that would otherwise become taxes.
One rule: no LGBTQ bullshit. Everyone who wants to quit the current system.
@dormouse759 @iliana "no LGBTQ bullshit"
Please elaborate what you mean by that. 'Cause right now that sounds really bad.
@Natanox @iliana That means if I were support to such a new system, it would must discriminate *not* based on sexual, psychological identity and/or sexual orientation.
Right now I feel like sitting on a wall between conservative douchebags and trans elitists.
It's the safest spot in the world though. Neither are able to hit me as both are missing all of the valid points.
@dormouse759 @iliana …are you a "meninist"? What you write sounds really, really weird.
"Trans elitists" <-- what?
"Trans elitists" <-- what?
@Natanox @iliana "meninist" sounds like a contradiction of what I said in the last post.
LGBT community tends to be very elitist and very exclusive towards people who themselves aren't gay, trans etc.
I liked that movement at first, felt like something that is supposed to say "Hey, being like this isn't bad.", but lately it seems like they are yet another bunch of ego-inflated pricks.
Please keep in mind that this opinion is heavily affected by individuals I have encountered online. (1/2)
@dormouse759 @iliana I see, so you're just talking about openly hostile, very loud & unreasonable people. Fair enough I guess, although in the current climate I'm almost surprised nobody already rethorically punched you given the previous posts can be taken *very* badly. Many have to fear for their life and wellbeing right now so they try to discern allies from enemies asap. It's a very bad climate to voice such criticism especially with this rather "unlucky" wording (no offense).
@Natanox @iliana Everyone has to fear for their life and wellbeing right now.
No matter how bad discrimination against any group is, there are worse issues in the world right now.
There's Putin, there's Trump, the planet is on fucking fire and we keep poisoning the ecosystem in the name of the great profit.
@dormouse759 @iliana Okay no, now you fucked up. Wtf, saying that while people are literally dying... keep your money and opinions.
delenda@iliana call it Matrix low energy (MLE)
Andrew Kelley@iliana email me if you want tips on starting a non profit
Ugvx@iliana I'm so keen for a proper discord alternative.
Every time I need info on some project, I long for a communication platform that works.
I dream of a federated communication platform that has functioning threads, chat, and searchable history.
Vincent SparksI'm interested in this opportunity however I have one question before I invest: what's wrong with XMPP
also here@iliana oh no i was making one on my computer this year with zero funding because those two are doing so little that that’s viable. but if someone had actual funding that would be so scary
kcxt @ 39c3@iliana idk what the long term solution is gonna look like, but i was looking into spacebar chat recently and it seems like it could be viable in the mid term. it's a full reimplementation of the discord server (all FOSS ofc), you can use a modded client to connect to it. They don't have federation or anything (yet?) but with some funding im sure that could happen....
main issue is being tied to the discord client, making good clients is SO HARD but it could totally be done. They have some early react prototype i think.
The postmarketOS community is on Matrix currently and our main room got hit by some exploit which caused every client to desync and remain desynced for the best part of a month, messages simply not being received or only going to some people etc etc. Moderation is awful and extremely limited in capabilities
not even to mention the wicked awesome shit discord has like actual roles and the ability to mention by role, this would be huge for us....
🌸 lily 🏳️⚧️ 
θΔ ⋐ & ∞@iliana im trans people
MarkAssPandi
you wouldn't pool noodle a foxdragon@iliana i have a friend who just started one, no $50m tho afaik
Danielle Foré
@danirabbit @iliana this is kinda like if frutiger aero was real
MedusaSkirt@iliana I would love to be a part of a project like that
yaodema
Irenes (many)@iliana that'd rock. we'd help with that (we wouldn't join a for-profit company but if it were structured as an org that gives grants to contribute to the commons, we'd take on part-time work)
@iliana we're pinning our hopes on IRCv3 at this point though. we think modern distributed-programming practices are a bit of a red herring when it comes to private communication
crab@iliana i used xmpp for a while in uni as a student org i was in used it as their main chat. i was able to consistently send and receive messages on EDGE when even websites wouldn't load and always found that pretty impressive.
of course xmpp has a lot of issues but since then i wonder why all chat apps cant do this
recursive 🏳️🌈@iliana I still haven't tried to use Matrix, but I am afraid it's in my future
So ... this is interesting from the standpoint of having recently been asked by a coworker to come up with a set of technical principles to guide decision-making for our broad-scope team at work
And I find https://spec.matrix.org/latest/#introduction-to-the-matrix-apis
Holy shit. It's the combo of "keep it simple" and "It should do everything that every previous system did well, we must build the utopia" that feels incredibly naive from a leadership perspective
Matrix Specification
Matrix defines a set of open APIs for decentralised communication, suitable for securely publishing, persisting and subscribing to data over a global open federation of servers with no single point of control. Uses include Instant Messaging (IM), Voice over IP (VoIP) signalling, Internet of Things (IoT) communication, and bridging together existing communication silos - providing the basis of a new open real-time communication ecosystem. To propose a change to the Matrix Spec, see the explanations at Proposals for Spec Changes to Matrix.
@recursive loool
yeah it turns out KISS is terrible if you want to build real systems
@iliana @recursive "provide a simple architecture with minimal third-party dependencies."
So thats why it's such a nightmare to build a dev environment for Element with its >1.000 dependencies. 
Wolf480pl
eri :this-user-is-a-fox:@iliana reminds me of our thoughts here https://moth.monster/blog/the-backend/
niko@iliana i feel what you’re saying, but also it’s kind of inevitable? As in, for true e2ee, the server literally cannot do anything with the data because it doesn’t know what the data is. It physically cannot do anything smart like shape the data or transcode it because only the client can decrypt it.