AlrosMay 4

Firefox's potential bankruptcy highlights the need for a stable solution for opensource software. Many projects utilized by millions of users depend on unpaid volunteers seeking donations through "buy me a coffee" buttons. This approach is not sustainable.

https://www.theverge.com/news/660548/firefox-google-search-revenue-share-doj-antitrust-remedies

Firefox could be doomed without Google search deal, says executive

Mozilla CFO Eric Muhlheim testified that Firefox could run out of business should a court prohibit Google from entering revenue share deals to be the default.

The Verge
Show threadJeff McNeill
@alberto Firefox has been using Google millions to enrich its executives while enshitifying its products for literally decades. It should be seen as simply an adjuct of a monopoly (Google). There are certainly useful business models for open source projects. Mozilla's imminent demise is not an open source problem, its a management / leadership problem.
May 4 at 7:51amWeb
Show threadAlrosMay 4
@jeffmcneill I'm not talking solely on Firefox, but on the broader issue of opensource business models. Alternatives such as dual-licensing or consultancy, are more stable than relying on donations or sponsorships, but there is still a problem. Small events can lead to disastrous outcomes. We saw it with the case of a micro-project like left-pad and now with Firefox.
Show threadJeff McNeillMay 4
@alberto Again, Firefox is not a "small events can lead to disastrous outcomes" unless you mean nigh-on criminal "leadership". No business model can save anyone from such an outcome. The products are horrible, the customers have been dwindling for years. Open source or not, this is a business which should simply die. There are other, much healthier browser projects out there, open source, and otherwise.
Show threadAlrosMay 4
@jeffmcneill would you mind naming a few?
Show threadJeff McNeillMay 4
@alberto A few what? Browsers? There are several: I like Ungoogled Chromium, Vivaldi. There is also Brave. There are more but I have little experience with them, but know they exist.
Show threadAlrosMay 4

@jeffmcneill are you aware that all those browsers are based on Blink that is primarily maintained by Google?

By the way, if you don't like Mozilla's business model, you should really check out Brave's.

Show threadJeff McNeillMay 4
@alberto Dude, you asked for examples of, I assume, browsers with business models. Your complaint now is that you don't like them? Yet Mozilla's is somehow ok?
Show threadAlrosMay 4
@jeffmcneill sorry, but I don't see how those three Blink-based browsers could be healthier than Firefox when they completely depend on Google's funding and lead, nor how that would be better than any concern you have on Mozilla.
Show threadJeff McNeillMay 4
@alberto "They completely depend on Google's funding" Nope, they rely upon other open source projects (which all do). Mozilla is the one that relies on direct Google payments, and squanders it as well. It deserves the death it has fashioned for itself. Claiming this is some sort of open source business model problem is delusional.
Show threadAlrosMay 5

@jeffmcneill Chromium does not depend on Google you say? I'm afraid you have to explain it to Chromium's team too.

> In 2024, Google made over 100,000 commits to Chromium, accounting for ~94 percent of contributions.

94% of Chromium is literally developed by Google.

https://blog.chromium.org/2025/01/announcing-supporters-of-chromium-based.html

Announcing Supporters of Chromium-based Browsers

Since Google announced the Chromium project in 2008, we have been excited to build on the great foundations of open-source web browsers an...

Chromium Blog
Show threadJeff McNeillMay 5
@alberto Bro you are being obtuse. Bye.
Show threadAlrosMay 5
@jeffmcneill đź‘‹
Show threadSome Dude on the InterwebsMay 5

@jeffmcneill @alberto

Mozilla is the one that relies on direct Google payments, and squanders it as well.The second clause of this sentence is unassailable.

Show threadEmil Jacobs - CollectifissionJun 1

@jeffmcneill @alberto I've made this napkin calculation before, but let's go over this again:

Mozilla employs about 1000 people [1]. Let's just assume that they're all working on Firefox development and earn $100k annually. That gives us a personnel cost of $100M a year.

Meanwhile, up to 200M people still use Firefox [2] and the Google deal gives Mozilla an income of around $500M annually (although this income varies) [3].

Knowing that personnel costs are the biggest cost of any company, I honestly don't know how Mozilla is running out of money... But let's assume the Google deal disappears and Mozilla need to get money from somewhere else. Could it live off its userbase?

I think they very well could. Even if we assume a $1 net donation to Mozilla per user per month, we would only need around 9 million donators to cover the personnel costs, or ~5% of the userbase. It's a general rule of thumb of donations that you can expect 5% of your followers to be willing to donate, so I don't think this is far fetched.

I *am* worrying about that apparent ~400M that Mozilla is spending ... somewhere that is not on their own people. But yeah, if they wanted to, Mozilla could be carried by their userbase and, more importantly, be inclined to what their users are telling them.

[1] https://blog.mozilla.org/careers/working-on-distributed-teams/
[2] https://tinygrab.com/how-many-people-use-firefox/
[3] https://www.techspot.com/news/101083-mozilla-raked-almost-600-million-2022-thanks-google.html

Working on distributed teams – Life@Mozilla

We have over 1,000 people who work at Mozilla. But, “at” Mozilla means a lot of things, as we have ten offices spanning seven countries and six time zones. And, ...

Life@Mozilla
Show threadAlrosJun 1

@collectifission if you are interested, you can dig into their financial statement, but it was not my point. I don't think that donations should be the go-to mechanism to fund software.

https://assets.mozilla.net/annualreport/2024/mozilla-fdn-2023-fs-final-short-1209.pdf

Show threadEmil Jacobs - CollectifissionJun 1

@alberto Thanks for the link. I'll give it a look.

And we disagree, which is fine. In my view Mozilla should be run as a coop with a responsibility to the community they're building software for.

Show threadAlrosJun 1

@collectifission maybe Mozilla could or even should. They have a large user base and it's a known brand. However, that's not the same for most projects.

I simply don't understand why it's normal to assume that opensource should live on donations, while we don't do the same for writers, singers, movie makers, and other similar professions.

Show threadEmil Jacobs - CollectifissionJun 1
@alberto Oh, I agree with you there. But there are examples where open source and commerce go together. CiviCRM for example has a whole community of consultancies that support the software for companies.
Show threadKevin Karhan Jun 1

@collectifission @jeffmcneill @alberto the problem is that #Mozilla failed to use their past "#UncoditionalIncome" or rather absurdly good #Google deal in any meaningful and sustainable way.

Which is why I want @Mozilla / @mozilla_support to hand over #Firefox to @torproject and make #TorBrowser it's #upstream.

  • Obviously the best option would be for #Mozilla to become like a #nonprofit (#eV) or #cooperative (#eG) where they have to actually #audit their finances (in the case of cooperatives, by an accredited external auditor) to enshure they ain't wasting huge amounts of money.

  • Cuz even if everyone there makes $200k a year (obviously they don't) that's still $300M that had to go somewhere.

And even if we assume they blow another $100M on equipment, hosting, sponsorships and other expenses that's still $200M unaccounted for.

  • I'd be willing to pay for a good browser, I really would, but that also entails said #funding to go somewhere useful as per the interest of those funding.

Anything else is a #donation.

Show threadluckJun 2
@jeffmcneill@hachyderm.io
@alberto@hachyderm.io @xenotar@mastodon.social
A opensource é um modelo de negócio. São vários projetos que são financiados pelas bigtechs. A mozilla é só mais um.
Show threadXenotarJun 2
@luck @jeffmcneill @alberto
Sim, e alguns sĂŁo negĂłcios sem financiamento delas como Red Hat e Ubuntu mas isso era um dos objetivos no inĂ­cio,