Mastodawn

Linux communities beware of #PewDiePie fans

Regardless of PewDiePie’s personal #politics (which clearly, at the very least are problematic), it is fairly well known by anyone who has been following him for any number of years that the vast majority of his fan base are enthusiastic fascists.

Now #PewDiePie , who’s content centers around PC gaming and Windows, has decided to switch to #Linux and published a video encouraging his followers to do the same. This means a very large number of his #fascist fan base is going to be switching to Linux.

Now many Linux communities are going to be forced to more explicitly choose their politics. Like the parable of the Nazi bar, if the community remains politically neutral, it will become fascist in short order.

A few things to be wary of:

People asking you not to be “too political” or to “focus on the technology, not the politics” is a classic and highly effective fascist ruse to get moderators to lighten up on fascist elements posting in their community.
People complaining about free speech rights. The #Internet and the #Fediverse is already a domain where people can speak freely about their politics by running their own server and building their own community with few to no government constraints. You don’t need to compromise on whether fascists have the right to free speech in your community.
Arguments over your code of conduct (CC) and “safe spaces.” Keep them up-to-date. Research other people’s CCs, learn about the history of why these CCs came to be, learn about what the function of each clause of the code is included and phrased the way it is. These were usually designed to make explicit the fact that a community wants to be a safe space where underprivileged people can feel comfortable expressing themselves, and it is very easy to make people afraid to express themselves. Fascists understand these CCs and the concept of “safe spaces” were explicitly designed to exclude them, and often attack these ideas.

'Subscribe to PewDiePie': What did Christchurch mosque gunman mean in final words before shooting? | The Independent

The gunman's mention of the meme was a nod to those in-the-know about internet culture – a fringe part of which helped foster his extreme anti-immigrant and Islamophobic ideology

The Independent

mcSlibinas Apr 27

@ramin_hal9001 it is. FOSS communities are like toddlers with flag "no to politics". Sure, if you have mom.
Any human life is politics: wages, taxes, services, medicine, car speeds, food ingredients are made by politics. "Oh, i do not care about politics" is just do not care about life.
And then life come to care about your wikipedia - trying to shut down (as example).
Or fascists.
Or russians.

> FOSS communities are like toddlers with flag "no to politics".

Free Software is inherently political. It was founded on a specific idea of the role of software in society.

Open Source (OSS) is inherentily unpolitical. It was a splinter group of the Free Software community that wanted to get rid of the political aspects of Free Software.

(I have links/sources somewhere but not time ATM.)

Edit: Links: https://social.tchncs.de/deck/@irom/114411382809307959

Irom (@irom@social.tchncs.de)

@mcSlibinas@mastodon.social @ramin_hal9001@fe.disroot.org Some sources: About the creation of the term Open Source from Eric Raymond, founder of the Open Source Initiative: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/O/open-source.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#Views_on_open_source "R. claims his method of promoting open-source software has been effective because he has used "a strategy of making rational, technical, utility-maximization arguments in which I explicitly disclaimed having any normative or moralizing agenda." GNU project https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html

Mastodon

mcSlibinas 6d ago

@irom @ramin_hal9001 i hope the principal idea is understandable? 🤔
If someone do not care about politics, then politics hits hard back to him.
No matter foss, oss, goss, poss or loss.
But because i like free software communities i wrote about them. I wish there will be more mature, for all of us it will be better.

@mcSlibinas
Yes, agreed and well put. I just wanted to amend that this is only a problem in OSS communities, not F communities.

@irom @mcSlibinas @ramin_hal9001 you wrote “inherently unpolitical” but i think you actually meant “inherently conservative, regressive, and reactionary”.

if the only reason your movement exists is in reaction to someone else’s political movement, your movement is inherently political. the politics are, by definition, baked into your movement.

there is no way to react to politics in an apolitical way, that’s literal nonsense.

@jepyang Fair enough. I'm not a fan of OSS.

@mcSlibinas @ramin_hal9001

RMS06510 6d ago

@irom @mcSlibinas @ramin_hal9001 every single word you say or write is political. There is no such thing as "apolitical"

mcSlibinas 6d ago

@rskurat @irom @ramin_hal9001 true. Trying to escape politics in everyday talks leads to 44% still support Trump. Not all of them are hopeless in using brains, they just do not have proper point of view.

Why we do not talking about politics? Where do it come from, that "proud of no talking about politics"?

RMS06510 6d ago

@mcSlibinas @irom @ramin_hal9001 it comes from ignorance - partial ignorance, to be fair. Many of these people know that they're out of their depth in political discussions, and rather than be overwhelmed or even ridiculed they prefer to opt out entirely

mcSlibinas 5d ago

@rskurat @irom @ramin_hal9001 yes, and people lost politics talk topics in a long time. We can discuss about sports, cars, music but cannot about politics. We lost that culture.

@mcSlibinas @ramin_hal9001

Some sources:

About the creation of the term Open Source from Eric Raymond, founder of the Open Source Initiative: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/O/open-source.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#Views_on_open_source

"R. claims his method of promoting open-source software has been effective because he has used "a strategy of making rational, technical, utility-maximization arguments in which I explicitly disclaimed having any normative or moralizing agenda."

GNU project https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html

open source

mcSlibinas 6d ago

@irom @ramin_hal9001 nice history.
So, i think, whatever-it-named communities ain't pure examples of this philosophy.
So i retreat out of your way.

See? We just made example of non-mature conversation, long reads about theories, clash about true experience.

I do not interested in this, i have a lot of this kind interaction in minecraft plugin or minetest discord.

Käsekuchen 5d ago

@irom @mcSlibinas @ramin_hal9001

Please provide those links when you can. Will help us argumenting against them. Thanks.

@Kaesekuchen A few links are now here: https://social.tchncs.de/deck/@irom/114411382809307959

I just checked Wikipedia and it has some more sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source#Open_source_as_a_term

@mcSlibinas @ramin_hal9001

Irom (@irom@social.tchncs.de)

@mcSlibinas@mastodon.social @ramin_hal9001@fe.disroot.org Some sources: About the creation of the term Open Source from Eric Raymond, founder of the Open Source Initiative: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/O/open-source.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond#Views_on_open_source "R. claims his method of promoting open-source software has been effective because he has used "a strategy of making rational, technical, utility-maximization arguments in which I explicitly disclaimed having any normative or moralizing agenda." GNU project https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html

Mastodon

@ramin_hal9001
Viktigt, viktigt, VIKTIGT.....🤜🤛....👍

OpticalNail 🇵🇸6d ago

Could you elaborate a bit on your arguments? I don't know much about pewdiepie; from what I see on the internet, he seems to do some stupid stuff for "content", true, but that's it. And most people that watch him are kids, a terrorist using a widespread meme is not a sign that the majority of his fanbase are enthusiastic fascists.

So I would like some arguments to sustain your point of view; I'm not saying that it isn't possible that you're right, but from the limited information that I found in these 5 minutes, your statement seems very overblown.

@arh @ramin_hal9001 Indeed, I am not aware of Pewdiepie espousing fascist ideas, nor tolerating it in his fans either.

This is like blaming Beatles for Charles Manson's acts.

Steffi the Redhead 6d ago

@ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001 according to the linked article it's not so much the content, but parts of the fan base.

So there is a likelihood that more of those people also try out Linux and try to establish something there when he makes videos about Linux.

I mean it's a no-brainer, because we even have fascist instances in the Fediverse. So of course the Linux community has to be aware, too.
The football team has to be aware, too.

@fuchsi @arh @ramin_hal9001 Aren't you a little too alarmist? Every mainstream artist has some crazy or despicable people among their fans, this is no different.

Besides, we have evidence of one (1) such fan, stop talking about "parts of the fan base".

Steffi the Redhead 6d ago

@ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001 That's not my opinion. I just said how I interpret the original toot.

(And according to the linked article it's more than one.)

But I also think those pointers in the original toot should be a thing for everyone to be aware of. Not because of that streamer, but because of the current worldwide situation.

Chójźina 6d ago

Thank you for providing even more examples of the type of 'arguments' fascists use

"Aren't you a little alarmist?"

@chojzina No, you're wrong here. The only argument the person I was responding to brought was that some fans of this streamer are fascist. That can be said of pretty much any famous or even semi-famous person.

Elsewhere in this thread, someone brought up the fact that the streamer himself promoted anti-jewish sentiments and actions, and that is horrible, but not what I was responding to.

Yes, "you're overreacting" is a fallacy, but that only works if the original argument is not a fallacy.

Zoidberg For President 5d ago

@ticho @chojzina One is responsible for their commmunity, PewDiePie is responsible for his, him merely not doing/saying anything to counteract it is complicity with it.

Jess wears a paperclip 5d ago

@ticho So PewDiePie's promotion of Nazi imagery is not literally espousing fascism? And there isn't a record of his fans doing bad things and invoking his fandom while doing them? This bad faith if your take away from OP is "Well, no one has proved his fans are fascists!"

@ticho PDP said in a Dutch documentary that "a racist joke isn't racist" which means he's a racist defending his racism.

@fuchsi @arh @ramin_hal9001

fear is not a Weltanschauung 5d ago

@ticho @fuchsi @arh @ramin_hal9001
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmRYRRDbuw
pewdiepie is highly regarded in the 'make fascism great again' community because he teaches the 9yos who watch him that it's super-cool to call people they don't like by the n-slur and make holocaust jokes.

The PewDiePipeline: how racist humor leads to violence

YouTube

Steffi the Redhead 5d ago

@wouldinotcallmyselfahumanbeing @ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001

BBC wrote "In other videos he also showed swastikas drawn by a fan, played the Nazi Party anthem and did a brief Hitler salute - all of which he says was done as a joke." (2017)
Disney didn't seem to be amused.

fear is not a Weltanschauung 5d ago

@fuchsi @ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001 before the usual 'everyone does stupid shit when they're young' apologist defence, in my juvenile asshole phase I started writing graffiti and tagging. one of my earliest tags incorporated a swastika because while I didn't know what a nazi was I knew the symbol was 'scary'. a fellow delinquent tagger classmate caught me at it and shit down my neck about the swastika. if kjellberg never learned any better it's because his peers were all little proto-fashies too.

@wouldinotcallmyselfahumanbeing @fuchsi @arh @ramin_hal9001 And before the "you are defending fascists" witchhunt gets any further, I am not defending him.

I went into this thread not knowing anything about the streamer, and the original post, with its URL was nothing more than baseless fingerpointing. That is what I reacted to.

After learning more, thanks to other people posting actual useful information, I of course agree pewdiepie is a fascist (or probably rather neonazi?) piece of shit.

Ramin Honary 5d ago

@ticho I don’t think @wouldinotcallmyselfahumanbeing was necessarily directing their comment at you specifically. I think their counter argument could apply to many other people in this thread who have tried defending PewDiePie who (unlike you) would not admit PewDiePie’s politics are toxic.

I have enjoyed reading both of your comments in this thread.

@wouldinotcallmyselfahumanbeing @fuchsi @arh

@ramin_hal9001 @fuchsi @arh @wouldinotcallmyselfahumanbeing I think you're right, I should take a step back. I guess I feel bad for being wrong after giving pewdiepie benefit of the doubt, and was reading some of the replies too defensively because of that.

fear is not a Weltanschauung 5d ago

@ticho I'm sorry i led you to feel personally attacked. @ramin_hal9001 is right in that i took the opportunity of your post to rebut a position several others in the thread held. While my first toot was in direct reply to yours, my follow up was intended to be a more generalised preemptive response to anyone about to jump in with a canard I've also seen reference a couple of times already. In hindsight i didn't convey that at all.

fear is not a Weltanschauung 5d ago

@ticho 1/2 this whole conversation does you credit. I think it's important to give ostensibly problematic actors the benefit of the doubt initially too, it affords them an oportunity for contrition and growth. Defensiveness at having done so is reflective of your having intent to be a good person and having an uncomfortable feeling that you might have stepped too near the edge of one of your own principles; it's truly admirable that you reflected on the discomfort, engaged with its source and...

fear is not a Weltanschauung 5d ago

@ticho 2/2 ...and used it to strengthen your principles when it would have been more gratifying to lean into an instinct to outrage and defensiveness. Thank you for your part in our conversation.

FediThing 🏳️‍🌈6d ago

@ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001

Pewdiepie paid people to hold up a sign saying "death to all jews" and then did a video "joking" about it:

https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/pewdiepie-death-to-all-jews-sign

This is how nasty people operate, they bring repulsive ideas into the mainstream, then claim it's just a joke if people criticise them, and then moan about being a misunderstood victim.

This is why he lost so many sponsors.

PewDiePie walks back his anti-Semitic prank amid fallout

This did not go well.

The Daily Dot

@FediThing @arh @ramin_hal9001 See, that's something completely different. I didn't know about that, and it is indeed abhorrent and inexcusable.

@FediThing @ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001

“I didn’t think they would actually do it. I feel partially responsible,” he said.

Because it would’ve happened anyway…

I shall file this character under cunt.

@inpc @FediThing @arh @ramin_hal9001 Yep, fully agreed.

@ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001 Back in 2017, a few weeks after PewDiePie promised to stop making Nazi jokes, he got irritated during a live stream and used a racist slur. His fans at the time characterized this as using a “gamer word” during a “heated gaming moment”. Look up either phrase and you’ll find the history easily enough.

Gives you an idea of the kind of fans he attracted.

flere-imsaho 🇺🇦6d ago

@ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001 there's really no need to defend this little shit; from the time of gamergate through his racist and antisemitic outbursts in later career, he's not a person you either want to defend or to have in your community.

Jess wears a paperclip 6d ago

PewDiePie espoused antisemitism, used Nazi imagery, said the n-word in his streams. He was dropped by his sponsors and kicked off YouTube for it. Regardless of whether it was for a prank, he is an edgelord and other aspiring edgelords emulate him for clout. It took literally 30 secs of internet search to find the receipts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-38965377

https://web.archive.org/web/20191009222802/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/09/magazine/PewDiePie-interview.html

Disney drops YouTuber PewDiePie over anti-Semitism claims

YouTube star PewDiePie, who made $15m in 2016 through the site, posted videos with Nazi references.

BBC News

Robert Kingett 5d ago

@ticho @arh @ramin_hal9001 Read https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/PewDiePie

PewDiePie

Felix Arvid Ulf Kjellberg (1989–), known by his stage name PewDiePie, is a Swedish internet entertainer who makes video content for the online streaming service YouTube. He makes millions of dollars a year from his entertainment business and is estimated to have a net worth of US$20 million.[1] His YouTube channel first became the most-subscribed channel[note 1] in August 2013, with 11 million subscribers, and has been overtaken several times, most notably by the Indian company T-Series in early 2019.

RationalWiki

🌱@ambiguous_yelp:ahimsa.chat 6d ago

@arh @ramin_hal9001 I don't agree the majority of his fans are fascist but he does attract them a lot more than the average youtuber theres a lot of social capital in someone that popular being "your guy" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmRYRRDbuw

The PewDiePipeline: how racist humor leads to violence

YouTube

saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN 6d ago

@ambiguous_yelp @arh @ramin_hal9001 Very cool! I will watch this later this day

Budsofstone 6d ago

@ambiguous_yelp @arh @ramin_hal9001 he screamed the n-word on stream with the mfing hard r. is a known 4chaner. Paid for facist propaganda to be spread. And has done white nationalist hand sign on screen. Wtf is wrong with yall

🌱@ambiguous_yelp:ahimsa.chat 6d ago

@budsofstone @arh @ramin_hal9001 yeah ig I was thinking fans=viewers, if you like pewdiepie after knowing he did those things its pretty messed up

Luna Lactea 6d ago

@arh @ramin_hal9001 He uses slurs as a joke & has shared some very right wing extremist views before. There's alot of self recorded evidence of this, such as the "PewDiePie bridge clip" & his social media profiles.

A wild KIRA appeared! 今furgeddaboutit 🔜pycon 6d ago

@ramin_hal9001 remember yall, don't let your communities end up however they're gonna end up by accident. there is nothing to be gained from appealing to shitbros with shit politics, be intentional and lead from the front

saxnot ➡️ HOA, GPN 6d ago

@kirakira @ramin_hal9001 wise advice for any group be it friends, business or any other.
These things don't happen by accident.

I REALLY wish it was more widely understood that civilization is like a garden and does not happen by accident.

@kirakira @ramin_hal9001

@ramin_hal9001@fe.disroot.org once i looked at openmandriva, as it was becoming somwhat popular

then i discovered it was because it was becoming well known as a non-woke distro

T^T

Janne Moren 6d ago

@ramin_hal9001
The FLOSS communities have had a strong share of far-right and fascist people for as long as I can remember. Many of the tech bros currently destroying our societies have been active in FLOSS (and Apple communities) after all. I don't see this making anything worse.

@jannem @ramin_hal9001

Yeah FLOSS has a lot of "at least he made his code run on time" tolerance of some fairly shitty people.

I think PDP is a shitty little edgelord, I don't think the majority of his fans are, they're just more focused on his entertainment value elsewhere.

Ask anyone that's not a white dude how worried they are about FLOSS suddenly becoming unwelcoming.

Ramin Honary 6d ago

The FLOSS communities have had a strong share of far-right and fascist people for as long as I can remember

@jannem that’s true, and it may not get worse. My point is simply that we can expect a sudden temporary influx of toxic people getting into Linux now, it is something to be aware of at the very least.

what are they gonna do ? 😅 push changed to kernel ?

Eric the Cerise 6d ago

Wait. PewDiePie is a real person?

I thought it was a made-up Internet meme/joke thing, like Skeletor, or the HawkTuah girl.

Ahri Enby 6d ago

@ErictheCerise @ramin_hal9001@fe.disroot.org yeah, just be careful about discussing about Kjellberg.

Toni Aittoniemi 6d ago

@ramin_hal9001 Neonazi takeovers of communities inbound.

They’ll do what they do elsewhere.

They’ll say ”this guy is bringing politics into our great community!”

They’ll shut out all dissenting voices for ”being political”,

Only after they have complete control, will they reveal their own politics. Slowly, as: ”It’s just a joke!” first.

But they do believe that stuff, lying and deception is just a virtue in their world. They see it as strength.

Pēteris Krišjānis 6d ago

@gimulnautti @ramin_hal9001 they can't take over communities. They can try and elbow in exceptions to them, but most of FLOSS community is pretty well versed into their tactics.
Most likely it will splinter community as a whole, but that is bound to happen anyway.

Mattias Eriksson 🦀🚵‍♂️⛵6d ago

@peteriskrisjanis @gimulnautti @ramin_hal9001
It is always good to be prepared if there comes a hoard of users in a short period of time. Also, not all communities are super old. So, even though foss communities as a whole have delt with trolls since ages, it it always good to be aware, and prepare, for any potential problems from this.