I didn't know
When I learned about the holocaust as teenager in Germany, many people from the Nazi era were still alive and lived all around me. Being the curious person I always was, I asked them about what happened and their role in it.
"I didn't know" was the boilerplate answer. And as they were relatives and friends, I believed them at first.
Then in 1981 we got a new teacher for history and he exposed the lie. Or more precise: he got us exposing those lies.
1/5
We started out in school by analysing the murder of Friedrich Schumm on April 1st 1933. He was a jewish lawyer born in #Kiel and where his parents still lived. On the day of a visit at home due to the marriage of his little sister, the SS was enforcing a boycott of the shop his father was operating.
He wanted to the enter the shop of his father but was hindered by the SS picket. A short fight ensued, a shot rang out and a man from the SS was seriously injured. Schumm fled, presented himself at a police station and was arrested.
Later that day, a lynch mob compromised of members of the SA/SS formed. The ransacked the shop of his father and with the help of Nazi politicians they entered the prison and his cell. They shot him 30 times.
2/5
This didn't happen in secret. We went to the archive of the local newspaper and got articles about the event from back then. And it was all in there. The newspaper (which still exists today) stumbled over his own feet in order to justify the lynching. I couldn't believe what I was reading: "We strongly condemn any lynching but this case was clearly justified". The newspaper argued against any prosecution of the lynch mob. They said that "gesundes Volksempfinden" (healthy popular sentiment) made the event inevitable.
It was a huge story back then that dominated the news for quite so time. It was not hidden on the second page, but the top news of the month. There were quotes from local Nazi politicians who claimed to be proud of the deed. All was there in broad daylight. The SS wasn't even attempting to hide it.
3/5
So knowing what we knew, we went out to ask people who were adults at the time of the deed. We asked them where they were living and which newspaper they had back then. After establishing that, we started asking about the murder.
And again we got the famous "I didn't know" again and again. We had copies of the newspaper from the incident and confronted them with it. They stuck to it. Nobody knew anything at all. The thing happened, became top news and nobody ever even heard of it.
They became angry at us for asking. Sometimes we were chased away. This was because we clearly noticed that they were lyiing and being teenager, we were not good at hiding the fact that we knew.
4/5
The frustrating thing about history is: When you study it, you see it all happening again. When one day the grandchildren of the young adults in the U.S. today will ask "Why didn't you say something when they deported innocent people to camps in El Salvador?" I can already tell their answer today "I didn't know."
5/5
Remark: I had ONE instance where someone confessed about a thing he did in that time.
It was a neighbor who (while heavily drunk) confessed that he beat up his old jewish teacher as an act of revenge and that he knew, he would get away with it.
Excellent thread. Thanks
And that last remark shows the huge allure of these fascistic movements. They allow anyone to feel empowered, so long as they support the leader's tribe. And at a time when the dangers are so serious and pervasive, who doesn't want to feel that empowerment?
He must have been very drunk indeed.
One time a woman told me that she knew nothing because "as a young mother, she'd been kept away from current events."
She had exactly one child, in 1940, in case you are wondering.
@prutser @Outpatientzero @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek
Except for the fact that Netanyahou supported Hamas all the way, so to have an excuse to deny the existence of Palestine.
So hard to hold the comparison.
@Outpatientzero @prutser @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek
Mmm... the tabu of wwii, nazi germany and israel is so high, that i don't think there ANY party in germany, which would condemn Israeli actions. Actually Germany just "deported" 3 EU and 1 US citizen for their pro palestine/anti genocide activism. Completely illegal in EU, but the state tries to silence any support of palestinian voices. Just 2 days ago i was havibg a long talk with "leftist" who was in peace protest with Israeli flag. Killing heakthworkers? "It's war". Nakba? "Zionist were building a country" and he still claimed to be leftists... i guess germany and italy (apparently) are only countries where there's bunch of "leftists" who support a country with right wing facist government, and their actions.
@Waveway
There is a lot of unresolved trauma, combined with a fairly incomplete reckoning of the nazi past. Currently it feels very much like a penance being paid rather than genuine introspection. The cost of course being paid by the indigenous people over the last 80 years.
I think we’ll see change eventually but only when it’s politically expedient and carries no inherent risk. I’m not anticipating Germany to lead the way here.
@Outpatientzero @prutser @boby_biq @masek
@Outpatientzero @prutser @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek
I'm sure at some point I (an American) will be blamed for the Gaza genocide despite being firmly, publicly opposed, donating to relief efforts, calling my congresspeople about it, etc. The problem is that I voted for Kamala Harris, who had no plan whatsoever to stop the killing and oppression. There were only two viable options: Harris or Trump, and Trump seemed (I think this has been borne out) dedicated to making the genocide even worse. But yes, I voted for someone who was not meaningfully anti-genocide in any public way or with any actual policy statements.
There was a brief period when it seemed Trump might begin to support an end to the genocide by peaceful means, by pressuring Israel and cutting off arms shipments and money. That turned out to be illusion and rumor, but if that had happened... I still would have voted for Harris, because the totality of the damage Trump would do to the US, the rest of the world, etc. would have outwieghed even the ongoing genocide in Gaza (note: Trump seems pro-genocide in many places around the world).
My guess is that Germany has a diversity of opinion as well, and that sometimes German citizens, even those trying to do the right thing, feel trapped by limited choices in elections.
@guyjantic @prutser @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek you made a choice in those limited circumstances, not American so not sure if I would have made the same choice, but other democratic nations are not the US and have other options available to them rather than just two parties.
As you say, you have done things to oppose genocide, unlike the people I was talking about.
@BenAveling @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek
Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism for the same reason that anti-Nazism is not anti-Germanism. Germans have a right to live in Europe. They do *not* have a right to rule it by virtue of their being Germans. The same goes for Jews in Palestine.
@LevZadov @BenAveling @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek
equating what the Nazis did with what Israel is doing _is_ antisemitism, though.
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
it doesn't.
since this here is not the format for deep research of history I suggest you do exactly that.
@kami_kadse
Supremacist ideology, ethno nationalism, expansionism, colonialism. Seems like a fit close enough to warrant inspection to me.
Maybe the lack of snazzy uniforms by Hugo Boss is throwing you off a bit.
Anyways, you take care with your study of history now 😊
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
your definition fits many.
there are reasons why the Holocaust (what the Germans did) is seen as a singular atrocity
@kami_kadse
It marked the point when an European colonising power turned their genocidal machine on other Europeans.
That being said the nazis did a lot more than round up people and kill them. They also had a supremacist ideology, expansionist ambitions, ethno nationalism (aryan race anyone?) and so on.
If other entities display these attributes it’s only fair to compare and contrast, no?
Is it a 1:1 match? No. Is it too close for comfort? Yes.
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
you are not addressing my point.
and no, the specificity of the Holocaust has not much to do with colonialism or with expansionism.
@kami_kadse
I’m trying, and apparently failing, to explain how some of the actions and ideologies of the nazis resemble those of the Zionist entity, and how it’s not a stretch to point out that they exhibit similar characteristics.
Maybe help me out by outlining the major differences as you perceive them?
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
no. I already made a suggestion how you can arrive there.
we can condemn atrocious violence against humans without suggesting that it is the same as the most crass act in history.
@kami_kadse
If you can’t explain or argue your position I think we’re done here.
Vague pointing at history and then refusing to elaborate doesn’t leave me with much to work with. I strongly suggest you pick up your studies of history with a vengeance and be better prepared in the future.
Have an occupation free day 😊
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
the very obvious point is (your) antisemitism.
you can do rhetoric shenanigans all day long, this doesn't make your point one bit more valid.
@kami_kadse
Again with the antisemitism 😂
Can’t argue your point? Antisemitism! Can’t back your statements with facts? Antisemitism!
You’re not a serious person.
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
of course would someone who very obviously doesn't understand antisemitism suggest that's not a serious problem.
that's why I already said that this here is not the format. thanks for proving my point.
@kami_kadse
If antisemitism means using it as a cudgel to shut down conversation i understand it just fine 😂
I’m pretty sure you’re being antisemitic by using antisemitism this way, or at best rendering the term meaningless.
You can’t substantiate your position and hide behind slurs when called out.
If that’s all you’ve got to bring to the table I reiterate that we are done here.
@Mogleg @LevZadov @BenAveling @boby_biq @masek
who is shutting down whom?
you don't. you lie. I don't care whether you believe this yourself or not. fuck off.
@kami_kadse @LevZadov @BenAveling @Mogleg @boby_biq @masek
Equating something undefined with some other undefined thing is never false, but void.
Edit: Grammar
"done by Europeans"
#Schrödingerswhites
@PedestrianError @masek Oh I get it. Phew.
I read your comment very differently. Yes.
That book is actually about liberal western hypocrisy regarding Gaza.
@Libby_ @PedestrianError Yea, the title of the book refers to this, actually.
Re: the comment I replied to- I misunderstood it but it’s clear now.
@boby_biq @PedestrianError @masek
Strange yes...but...true
I had your thread summarized and posted it on Fediverse. I hope that's ok from your side. It's important and needs to be spread.
This is a thread summarised with Mastoreader about the beginning of Nazi socialism and the parallels to the present day. About collective forgetting. Since I don’t know how stable the Mastoreader is, I have also archived [https://archive.ph/EvTnl] the thread again.
Martin Seeger
Chris
Klimastig
TC Won't Give In To Lies
Em
Just Boby
Mogleg
Erik van Zijst
j@mastodon
Waveway - Oh Griddle
Proto Himbo European
Ntropic
Ben Aveling
Levka
kami_kadse
Jimmy
distincte&clare
Asbestos
PedestrianError 
Libby
Cheshire Lunar Kitten
Günter aus Aux