Barbara
Jason GormanIn a nutshell
Eric LawtonSo capitalism is efficient because a billionaire always "needs" more and will scoop up any resource that becomes available.
But what we need is an effective system that provides food, shelter, healthcare, … as the need arises.
jon r@jasongorman
I don't really get it, but it sure does sound nice. What's the aha-moment here about the anti-proportional relationships between efficiency, effectiveness, needs and resources that I am missing?
@joe_vinegar
I don't really get it, but it sure does sound nice. What's the aha-moment here about the anti-proportional relationships between efficiency, effectiveness, needs and resources that I am missing?
@joe_vinegar
Jon Moore@yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar An efficient system does not waste resources, at the possible expense of not meeting every need. An effective system meets every need, at the expense of some of the resources being idle sometimes (“wasted”).
@jonm
Thank you Jon for the rewording, this was a non-native translation error.
@jasongorman @joe_vinegar
Thank you Jon for the rewording, this was a non-native translation error.
@jasongorman @joe_vinegar
Darwin Woodka@jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar
It's called slack, and it's vital.
That's what people don't get.
@darwinwoodka Where would you put it, resource-utilisation wise? At 50 %, 60 %, with a hard limit at 80 %?
Jérôme Petazzoni@yala @darwinwoodka @jonm @jasongorman @joe_vinegar
In my humble opinion, we shouldn't look at it in terms of resource utilization. It's about the desired level of service. If there is a fire once a year, the fire department might be used 0.3% of the time; but if that fire destroys the whole town each time it happens, we might still want to have a fire department.
(I think that's the downside of "efficiency": it often looks at minimizing direct costs and rarely indirect costs caused by reducing the effectiveness of the system.)
@jpetazzo @yala @jonm @jasongorman @joe_vinegar
Or you realize they can do more than fight fires and then you get paramedics, emergency response for car accidents, etc.
Wulfy—Speaker to the machines@darwinwoodka @jpetazzo @yala @jonm @jasongorman @joe_vinegar
That's what the "Swedish model" of road safety is.
Every accident is caused by a poorly designed roadway.
Ben AvelingHow much slack there should be depends upon the cost of keeping ppl waiting. @yala @jonm @joe_vinegar @darwinwoodka @jasongorman
Matt Palmer@yala there's a little corner of operations research called "queueing theory", which demonstrates some mind-bendingly counter-intuitive relationships between service utilisation and system effectiveness.
Eggmont 🐘@jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar
"The Goal" by Eliyahu M. Goldratt is a business novel that delves into the notion of process optimization for the organization as a whole rather than going after individual parts that result in overall inefficiencies resulting from resource bottlenecks at critical times.
A fire department is a good example of a seemingly wasted resource, except of course when you have a fire.
The cost of having a resource idle is often far outweighed by the consequence of having it unavailable.
David S (inactive)@jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar a good example in the UK is gritting roads.
An effective system as salt bins on every street, people employed and ready to spread the grit when it snows and gritters on standby at every major road junction.
But...
The decision is usually made by cash strapped councils to have only a few gritters which are inevitably never enough.
But it's efficient! and they don't "waste" (spend) money on gritters running the 364 days without snow.
catch@jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar that's not how I read things for efficient.
If you look at a grid, It's more like charging batteries/heating water etc when there is excess solar/wind and/or low demand, which results in stored energy that then doesn't need to be taken direct from the grid when there's higher demand or lower generation.
For example I set my home solar battery up so it charges at night when it's windy (based on 30 minute energy pricing from my supplier) and realised 99% of home solar installations don't do this. Neither efficient nor effective compared to what they could be, especially in the winter.
keplerniko@catch56 @jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar Is that not an example of *optimisation*, rather than efficiency?
Your solar battery is supposed to store energy from the solar panels (alone). The fact you've found an additional use for it - to store energy from a different source - which helps maximise its *effectiveness* beyond the initial point of failure (i.e. when it runs out of charge from the stored solar energy alone) does not speak to its efficiency at its intended purpose (storing solar energy) but rather peak *optimisation* by finding more than a single way to charge it.
@keplerniko @jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar no because the battery is one example of the grid as a whole.
Need available when resource becomes free (electricity):
Charging idle batteries, heating water, charge underground thermal energy storage - instead of shutting down wind turbines which is what can happen when there's nothing to absorb the electric from the grid.
Resource available when need arises:
Energy stored via the above methods can be used before gas plants, diesel generators, coal stations fired up, or rationing, power cuts etc. increasing the total energy available without additional grid load.
@catch56 @jonm @yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar Ah sorry, I thought you meant your battery specifically, not all those which are theoretically available (as well as any other energy capture devices plugged to the grid) which could store overnight energy and release during the day.
cratermoon@yala @jasongorman @joe_vinegar Efficient: never more resources than needed. Effective: Never more need than resources.
Matthias BohlenThat's an interesting way to put it! I would say, an efficient system uses only so much resources as it absolutely needs. An effective system does a good job with the resources at hand.
🇸🇭🇮
@jasongorman this is a dyslexia trap
Raymond Russell@jasongorman
This is in the same vain and not original to me.
"The most efficient hospital has only one bed as it will always be in use."
This is in the same vain and not original to me.
"The most efficient hospital has only one bed as it will always be in use."
delanthear@raymierussell @jasongorman 2.. so you can clean one of them and avoid downtime :D
@delanthear @jasongorman
I am not sure that works as both beds are operating as separate entities and will require to be cleaned regularly. So it is the same 'problem' doubled.
I am not sure that works as both beds are operating as separate entities and will require to be cleaned regularly. So it is the same 'problem' doubled.
@raymierussell @jasongorman Just alternate the cleaning dates. Then at least one bed is always in available :D I guess the down time for the bed being cleaned might impact against the required KPIs though, but are bedbugs an allowable exception?
@delanthear @jasongorman
Having one bed available rather than being used would seem to reduce the efficiency vs. a 1 bed system.
Having one bed available rather than being used would seem to reduce the efficiency vs. a 1 bed system.
@raymierussell there is never a bed available in this scenario. Unless demand has dropped so low you no longer need a hospital
@raymierussell @jasongorman "Then at least one bed is always in available :D " I mean to say "in use" here!
Murdoc Addams 🧛🏻
🇨🇦@jasongorman
I think that I'd like to see the non-nutshell version, because I can't see how this works with what I understand efficiency to mean.
I think that I'd like to see the non-nutshell version, because I can't see how this works with what I understand efficiency to mean.
Thomas Lobig@murdoc so it's not just me. Good. @jasongorman
Cassandrich@jasongorman The problem here is the discrepancy between what bad folks and good (or even normal) folks mean by "efficiency".
I would say an efficient system also always has resources available when a need arises, because it hasn't let the resources be squandered, but has respected their finitude and has allocated them accordingly. An inefficient system treats resources as something ok to squander because the profit will make up for the inefficiency.
Ray Jepson@jasongorman in mass production, we never plan for 100% capacity. If we are in the 90%+ range, it's very good.
Turing Incomplete@jasongorman Well this elegantly resolves my lifetime quest to properly disambiguate.
Now someone do efficacious.
Deb E Howell, writer@jasongorman When people think efficiency means cutting things to the bone I always consider DNA and how much redundancy is built into many biological systems. If it wasn't, we likely wouldn't have life.
Also, as a small business owner, our business coaches always tell us to build capacity (i.e. hire) before pushing for growth. And certainly, without capacity for cover, holidays and sick days grind work to a halt. However efficient one might like to be, employees are humans and are, therefore, biological systems … redundancy in those systems is essential for survival.
🔑Carlos MurgasCarrillo@soulhaven @jasongorman hard to not be redundant today. Embrace efficient redundancy🧙🏽♂️
David Mitchell 
This is why making an ‘efficient’ health care system always leads to disappointment… people really want an effective one.
@jasongorman the first part is stupid, this is not how efficiency works.
$8TrollUS style capitalism abhors excess capacity as a waste of capital.
In most cases there is little capacity to ramp up when resources or demand increase.
MattJohns
Phil Thane ✅@jasongorman
Unfortunately we consumers would like effective systems but the providers prefer efficient.
Unfortunately we consumers would like effective systems but the providers prefer efficient.
R.L. LE@jasongorman So, effectiveness and efficiency should ideally, behave in a complimentary way? 🤔
CyberFrog@herrLorenz @jasongorman that tends to be how the best systems operate, you can have an extremely efficient system that isn't effective (ie useless) or vice versa
only when they're balanced do you get something nice to deal with
only when they're balanced do you get something nice to deal with
PhDogI like this. Just to rephrase this for myself: an efficient system uses all the resources, and effective system satisfies all the needs.
Kaito@jasongorman perfect parking pricing: exactly one free space on every block, and just as one car is parking in that last available spot, another car is departing