Squorlple

lemmy.blahaj.zone admins sitebanning users for stating a fictional animal is fictional in order to accommodate for a troll account

https://lemmy.world/post/23626357

lemmy.blahaj.zone admins sitebanning users for stating a fictional animal is fictional in order to accommodate for a troll account - Lemmy.World

[https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/75572337-8e4d-4a27-8ab4-bb7242319361.jpeg] [https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/e214e702-8a91-48e0-8852-8db1873d34cb.jpeg] [https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/34b6f56e-3a93-48d9-85b3-ee338f215207.jpeg] Edit: I also just got banned for apparently being a troll. Me. Not the person they believe to be a dragon though.

Dec 28, 2024 at 8:05amWeb
Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024
“Gatekeeping” is an especially funny thing to accuse people of while you are gatekeeping.
Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024

Blåhaj Lemmy and its communities have certain rules regarding respecting of one’s identity and their chosen pronouns. This extends to identities and pronouns you might not agree with. Those are the rules of that space. You broke the rules. The consequences followed. This is just basic stuff.

On the other hand, if you believe certain people to be trolling with their neopronouns, then engaging with the matter in any way, is kind of “falling” for it. So, just … don’t engage? This is the internet. People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.

Show threadSquorlpleDec 28, 2024

The users are taking issue with the admins falling for the troll and allowing the troll to make the space hostile. Their engagement is with the admin/mod response, not with the user.

If you genuinely believe dragons are real and they are able to type and have some understanding of the English language, go gather the data, get it peer reviewed and objectively verified, and go collect your Nobel Prize. Otherwise, if you occupy a space in which people must act as if dragons or Santa or Groot are real, that is an improv roleplay in which failure to say “Yes, and” is a bannable offense. Reality persists. Eppur si muove.

fantasy creatures

By using that adjective, you are implying there are creatures which do not exist. You’re defending the admin response by partaking in the same act which got the users banned.

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024
Why are you hung up on the “dragons aren’t real” thing? That was never a requirement. Some people will argue that being trans isn’t real, being plural isn’t real, being genderfluid isn’t real, being being bigender or another gender entirely isn’t real. (Not that you are claiming such.) As such, the admins there simply decided that there won’t be a line drawn. Let people do what they want. Heck, you could consider it “roleplaying” if you’re more comfortable with that, or alternatively, simply don’t engage. It’s disrespectful and not to mention disruptive to make it an issue.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

Why are you hung up on the “dragons aren’t real” thing? That was never a requirement.

It was never a requirement that serious expressions of identity be real?

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024
Yes. Them’s the rules on Blåhaj Lemmy.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024
I mean, apparently so, but I was not operating under the assumption that “We don’t believe in gender, this is all roleplay” was the base state of the instance, and many others seem surprised by it too.
Show threadRedSeriesDec 28, 2024
Three feet to your right is “trans women are roleplaying women”. You may not hold that view explicitly, but the rules around respecting identity in that instance exist for that reason. And that means accepting identities that are challenging, even if they are being used by shitty people.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024
It’s not about the person being shitty, it’s about the identity itself being absurd and contradictory to reality.
Show threadRedSeriesDec 28, 2024
You’re so close to getting my point. It’s like right there.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

“Transphobes hate trans people because they don’t think trans people are real; therefore, in order to not be transphobic, you must admit reality doesn’t exist” isn’t very compelling.

Most ordinary folk would opine that transphobia is bad precisely because trans folk do exist in reality and are valid.

Show threadGBU_28Dec 28, 2024
Imagine dragonfucker instead said “I am Jesus Christ reborn, refer to me as the Lord.”. Obvious madness and I doubt any community would respect it. It’s the same fantasy shit just dragons are nominally aligned with furry culture
Show threadmindbleachDec 28, 2024

Grail basically did that, and it got a moderator booted out for not capitalizing pronouns in a well-deserved ban message.

By the sound of things - this is about the same asshole. They just changed accounts and switched gimmicks.

Show threadGBU_28Dec 28, 2024
Hilarious
Show threadmindbleachDec 28, 2024
Honestly, no, it’s just sad. This is Blahaj’s sole overstep and Ada is determined to make it everybody’s problem. Zero nuance, zero chill. Even 196 is talking about skipping over to friggin’ .world - all thanks to this defense of one narcissistic ban-evading douchebag.
Show threadGBU_28Dec 28, 2024
Hilarious not as in “haha cool”, more line “look at the state of this mess”
Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

People get to be (more or less seriously) humanoid animals, fantasy creatures and races, and if you can’t get along with that, you can expect to get thrown out of a space that explicitly welcome anyone regardless of their identity or pronouns.

If I were a transgender person, I would not go within ten miles of a community that was applying the same rules to fantasy creature role playing as it was to my gender pronouns. The normie world doesn’t need to have any assistance in seeing the whole thing as made up, equivalent to wanting to be called a dolphin or a mermaid, and confusing those two very, very different concepts, or treating them as deserving of precisely the same treatment and rules, sounds very wrong to me.

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024

If I were a transgender person

Thanks for “cisplaining” what a trans person would feel.

As a trans person, I would rather have a space where everyone’s identities aren’t questioned, than some kind of (potentially hidden) requirement to be in place that your identity has to be “real” in some way. If “normies” have trouble respecting trans people just because we also happen to respect other identities in our spaces, then shrug. If fellow trans people are uncomfortable with that, they don’t have to be part of this space, either.

In the end, you’re once again making this a much bigger deal than it has to be. Someone broke the explicitly written out rules and got bonked for it. And if you think this person is a troll, they sure are a good one with how much they’re being fed with all these posts.

Makes me wonder if the “I got banned” posts are just a continuation of the trolling to make as much drama as possible.

Move on. There’s trans people dying out there. This isn’t worth fighting over.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

I care about issues of censorship and trolling, and the social contract on the network, that’s the only reason I am in this discussion. I think the whole “call me drag” thing is not worth that much attention, yes, but banning a bunch of people for saying dragons aren’t real sort of drew my attention to it.

I don’t know. It is your instance. You can do what you like with it, but keep in mind that not everyone who is obeying the rules to the letter is your friend.

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024
It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule. That’s just the moderators / admins doing their job. And there’s a subtext to saying “dragons aren’t real”, which is “I don’t think I need to respect this person’s identity or pronouns”. That’s why it’s gatekeeping. You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.

…

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024
Alright I suppose it technically is censorship. I’m not a native English speaking person. You certainly shouldn’t be surprised about a community’s rules being enforced, though. I don’t think it would be sensible to complain about “censorship” if (as an example) one is spouting bigoted nonsense at family dinner and is getting thrown out the house as a result.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

I would say this is more like being told “No prejudice” at Thanksgiving Dinner, and then being thrown out for saying that mashed potatoes were a mistake of god.

It is technically prejudiced (against mashed potatoes), but it is not the assumption most people would have upon being told “No prejudice”. Likewise, being told “Don’t discriminate against anyone’s gender identity” does not, for many, call to mind “Don’t say people can’t be dragons or that dragons aren’t real, they can be dragons if they want”.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

It isn’t censorship if you get your post / comment removed or banned for breaking a rule.

Sure it is.

By my reading of the db0 terms of service, you’ve broken them here, because you are advocating for systems of authoritarian control and against the open discussion of ideas. Would you support banning your user from db0 so we can’t have this conversation? Is that censorship?

I don’t think you should get banned, of course. Because you’re clearly talking in good faith, and I like being able to talk with people, even when I disagree with them. I just would have a wish that the network as a whole generally works like that.

You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid

But the blahaj admins do! If I showed up and said my pronouns were “thatsaspicymeatball,” they would decide that wasn’t valid. They would not ban people for not using that as my pronouns, or for discussing the issue. They’ve just decided to make their judgement call in one particular place instead of another. That’s fine, of course, but then mechanically enforcing that everyone has to act in exact accordance with where they drew the line, even though there’s room for reasonable disagreement, is what will get people talking about you on PTB.

The reality of human life is that people look at things differently sometimes. I get wanting to protect your space against ignorance or people who will make someone feel unwelcome. But this is taking it to an extreme, forcing everyone to look at things in exactly the same chosen way, which is tearing down the thing you’re trying to accomplish, I think.

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024

Does db0 have a ToS? I can see an “Anarchist Code of Conduct”, which seems to only support my points. In addition, db0 Lemmy has its own rules that could be seen as censorship just the same. Pointing out either instance’s rules existing presumably doesn’t imply that I’m advocating for authoritarian control or against discussion of ideas.

If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun. drag/drag, other than being exotic, works fine in place of a pronoun. (Though one could argue it is so unique it’s more akin to a nickname, but that’s another discussion to be had.) If you instead said your pronouns were that/that, and being serious about it, it would likely be accepted. Sure, you could argue it’s a line being drawn elsewhere, but it’s not on the matter of identity.

I know numerous people that use fae/faer pronouns, some friends. Fairies aren’t real, either. Does that mean people should be allowed to make those same arguments, be allowed to openly be disrespectful and arguing against the use of those pronouns, in a space that explicitly asks you to respect them? No, of course not. Admittedly, I don’t know anyone who isn’t also okay with certain non-neopronouns being used for them as well, but if they weren’t, I personally wouldn’t think much about it and just use them.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

In the code of conduct is:

Voluntary interaction, especially when it includes:

  • Inclusive language and behavior,
  • Welcoming attitude and approach,
  • Rational debate and discussion,
  • Genuine exchanges of ideas,

What is Unacceptable

  • Authoritarianism, or the spread of behavior that is designed to overturn the standards described so far

You could say that’s misleadingly trimmed. I was mainly just trying to make a point: Just because something is according to the written rules doesn’t make it right. Also, you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards, and no one is banning you, nor should they, I think. That is one way you can wind up talking with people even if at the outset they may not agree with you on everything.

If you said your pronouns were 19 characters long, then one would argue that it is no longer functioning as a pronoun.

You don’t get to decide what identities / pronouns are valid or which rules apply to you because you think you made a good point.

See how that works?

My point was that they’re exercising judgement already, as you would to my requested pronouns, because of course they are. Everyone who’s doing moderation has to exercise judgement.

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024

you’re currently coming into a space and violating its community standards

If I’m truly violating db0’s community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I don’t think I am.

See how that works?

“My pronouns are the entire bee movie script.”
“My pronouns are they/them’); DROP TABLE Pronouns;–”
“My pronouns are an hour of silence followed by an ear-shattering scream.”

Obviously there is a limit to what is reasonable to use as a (neo)pronoun, in line with the purpose of personal pronouns, and drag/drag is very much within acceptable limits, wheras “thatsaspicymeatball/thatsaspicymeatball” is not. Our opinions might differ, and that’s okay, but you’re not making a good argument for your side.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

Making a “pronoun” that is a nickname makes it not a pronoun, grammatically. Also, this person isn’t actually a dragon, and them insisting that they are turns it into something very different from a person who wants to be referred to as a different gender or intersex or however they express themselves.

You could say that those are irrelevant issues, and the issue of length is a critical one, of course. Like you said I think our opinions are just different about it.

Show threadcopygirlDec 28, 2024

All that’s being asked for is to accept everyone’s pronouns. If you think someone is using joke pronouns – which again drag/drag is exotic but literally no extra effort to type than they/them – then you can report and let the mods and admins deal with it. Arguing “I don’t need to respect this person’s pronouns because dragons aren’t real” is where you step into the realm of rule-breaking in this instance.

Feel free to read some of the experiences and opinions of other trans people in this thread. Notably, we don’t all agree, but it’s not all that out there as you’re making it seem.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024
I think that’s the crux of the matter. I’m pretty confident that the person with the nick “dragonfucker” who identifies as a dragon and wants to use “drag” as their pronouns and also causes all kinds of other drama, is using joke pronouns. My reaction to it is pretty much the same as your reaction to the “thatsaspicymeatball” pronoun. You’re welcome to your opinion and to treat them any way you want to, but nothing I am saying would translate in any way to someone who wasn’t an internet stranger with about 10 different red flags that they were trolling.
Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

If I’m truly violating db0’s community standards, then I would like to know. And looking at the (A)CoC, I don’t think I am.

Yes, but PugJesus truly didn’t think he was violating the community standards. He’s been explaining himself here, and getting treated like “the enemy” mostly because he’s trying to protect your community against someone he thinks is just trolling you and trying to hold you up to ridicule.

My point with this part was that there are communities that start jumping on the banhammer as soon as some reading of the community rules could define a person as the enemy, and that feels very different from the getting-banned side than it does from the banning-the-enemies side. You can probably imagine how it would feel if you got instance banned for the conversation we’ve had so far.

Show threadNorah (pup/it/she)Dec 28, 2024

…because he’s trying to protect your community…

Nobody asked him too, and it’s quite paternalistic to believe that it’s needed.

Show threadRedSeriesDec 28, 2024

If I were a transgender person…

Look, whether I agree with you or not, please don’t try and put words in our mouths. You don’t speak for us. This kind of stuff is why that place even exists.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024
I’m not speaking for you. I’m speaking for me, and telling you how I see it. If you think my opinion on this may not hold much weight, which seems fair, you can scroll down a little and have a conversation with a trans person who sees it 100% the same way I do.
Show threadRedSeriesDec 28, 2024

You’re speaking for yourself “if you were a transgender person”. You aren’t though.

Maybe you would understand my point if I stated a shitty opinion I had with “If I were a black person…” Or “If I were Muslim…”. Maybe I can find one black or Muslim person to agree with me and then just deflect you to them when called out.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024
Whoever decided it would be fun to stir the pot to get the blahaj people arguing with the rest of Lemmy is sure as hell getting their money’s worth. That’s about all I want to add, at this point.
Show threadcatloafDec 28, 2024
That person is drag, of course.
Show threadStupidBrotherInLawDec 28, 2024

In this thread:

Blahaj Community: If you’re not trans, you don’t get a say in how trans spaces are run.

You: If I were a transgender person, here’s how I think I’d feel!

But mate, you’re not trans! How great, your opinion literally doesn’t matter a half fucking iota. It’s not needed or even wanted. Cishets run the world, so fuck right off out of trans spaces with your “but if I were trans” opinions. You’re not, no one cares.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

I notice that literally 0 of the several people who are lecturing me on how I don’t have a right to make this statement have engaged with the trans person who said they feel 100% the same way.

I suspect the reason is that you have no interest in giving the same level of respect you’re demanding, and mostly you want to give the lecture, and receiving one would be unacceptable, even from someone who has the same badge of “I’m allowed to give a lecture” that you’re trying to cash in.

Honestly? I think you should talk to that person. They might be able to tell you things like “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically speak for all trans people,” or “Just because you’re trans doesn’t mean you automatically are right about everything, yes, even when trans issues are involved.” I can’t say that, because I have no authority to, it’s just offensive. With them, you could have a real interaction, and you, or they, might be able to learn something. As you rightly pointed out, the usefulness of what I have to say on it is going to be limited.

I realized a while ago that me and blahaj weren’t going to vibe, and I left them alone to do their thing and me mine. This, however, is a space that I like to call home, to some extent, talking about issues that are important to me. I’m a little bit reluctant for my opinions to get kicked out of it completely because they’ve intersected with your issues. Hopefully that seems fair.

Again: If you’re trying to have this interaction for an exchange of views between qualified people, I’m not the person to talk with. If you’re just into the idea of giving a lecture to an unqualified person, but not in that other thing, which to me seems like it would be a lot more useful… why?

Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024
PTB. This has very much soured me on Blahaj Zone, unfortunately. Not a big loss for them, since I only occasionally posted there, but very saddening to me.
Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024

I’m starting to believe that instances that are primarily for one and only one subgrouping are a bad idea, because bad actors just have to put on the right group appellation and the rest of the community will go to bat for whatever malicious nonsense they’ve got in mind, because “they’re one of us!” It’s the same type of thing as separating church and state.

By far the most inclusive communities, in my experience, are the fully general-purpose instances or the regional ones. It’s just too easy for “we’re supportive for the X people” to turn into “well you’re not an X person, and the person who’s beefing with you is, so GET FUCKED from all of us.”

Show threadIncogCyberspaceUserDec 28, 2024
What is PTB supposed to mean? Pump the breaks?
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024
Power-Tripping-Bastard
Show threadspujbDec 28, 2024
rare PugJesus L. everyone making this a shitshow had every opportunity to block this user, just as every other person we are annoyed with, but for some reason, no, we have to all be vocal about it.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

rare PugJesus L. everyone making this a shitshow had every opportunity to block this user, just as every other person we are annoyed with, but for some reason, no, we have to all be vocal about it.

If it was drag themselves, that would be one thing. I don’t even remember the last time I interacted with, or read, drag’s posts. It’s the admin reaction which soured me.

Show threadspujbDec 28, 2024

which reaction? clearly stating that a rule would be enforced strictly before enforcing it strictly?

come on, man, you’re better than this lmao

Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

The reaction mandating the legitimization of someone all-but-identifying as an attack helicopter. This is the sort of thing that if I saw in a satire of online trans spaces, I would have rejected as an excessively absurd exaggeration even for mean-spirited satire.

I suppose I thought too highly of people.

Show threadSquorlpleDec 28, 2024
Admin specifically endorsed attack helicopter as an identity.
Neopronouns are not trolling - Blåhaj Lemmy

I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with. So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them. I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour. This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

I would say that, in all fairness, that could be read not as an endorsement of the idea of attack helicopter as a gender itself, but as a defense of it in reclamation/shibboleth/slang term, the way that some queer folk playfully call themselves ‘faeries’ despite the history of the term, without meaning to imply that they are literally the fae folk of yore.

… but her actions regarding drag do not inspire confidence in that interpretation.

Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024
You kind of have a point, to be honest. I started talking about this initially for well-intentioned reasons and still hold some hope that it might be lead to a better exchange of views with the blahaj folks, but it seems like almost all heat no light as of present.
Show threadspujbDec 28, 2024

thank you for understanding. please consider repeating this if you agree with it, as it’s going largely unheard l

i personally don’t give a fuck if drag’s a troll or not but HOT DAMB it’s like all the reddiquette to “not feed the (apparent) trolls” we learned in our past is thrown out the window we had is thrown out the window in this one specific case for some reason.

Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024

Like I said, I don’t even remember the last time I interacted with drag. The admin came out of nowhere and effectively said “We’re backing the idea of dragongender to the hilt” and banned people for saying “But dragons aren’t real???”

The core issue isn’t drag. The core issue is that the admin came up, all but repeated the Attack Helicopter meme using to attack trans folk, but rephrased as a positive, and then removed and banned people who were astounded by that. And as many commenters in this thread show, that is not entirely unpopular on the instance.

I’m not going to break bread with people who insist gender is just a roleplay like we’re all three and pretending to be Power Rangers.

Show threaderotadorDec 28, 2024
goes to a trans meta sub about rule enforcement, breaks said rule immediately, gets banned. seems about right? like do you want people to enforce rules or not? I though this sub was about people who are doing whatever they want regardless of the rules, not for enforcing said rules.
Show threadPugJesusDec 28, 2024
Most people would not have taken “Dragons aren’t real” to be against the rules, but here we are, apparently.
Show threaderotadorDec 28, 2024
I don’t go to 196 I don’t know their rules
Show threadElectroLisaDec 28, 2024

196 is just a community hosted on Blahaj, it’s rule is “post something before you leave” which is why all the posts on it have “rule” in the title.

The “drama” comes from the Blahaj.zone instance

Show threaderotadorDec 28, 2024
ahh so 196 is a blahaj zone community then? then is has to follow general blahaj zone rules right?
Show threadElectroLisaDec 28, 2024
Yes, however bans in question were handed out by instance admins iirc
Show threaderotadorDec 28, 2024
then I don’t get what the problem is, the admins make the rules for their instance, communities in those instances follow those rules, if not they can move to other instances, see the star trek communities for examples. the admins are making a hard stance on this issue and have the right to enforce the rules they state they will enforce.
Show threadPhilipTheBucketDec 28, 2024
Just like people have a right to come to this community and say they think it’s a silly rule. We all are within our rights, hooray.