Maria
Andrew
Steinar BangFunny!
(but not strictly true anymore for linux users...)
(probably still true for cyclists, though...)
Phel@steinarb Nowadays it's Windows users and worrying about security issues with outdated drivers
simendsjo@steinarb sure, there are more hardware, but drivers will be an issue as long as it's not a first class priority by vendors. I just bought two devices in order to improve the driver situation after being shamed when it didn't work just plugging in. This was during a job interview which made it especially bad. Drivers keep being an achilles heel.
@simendsjo Here is my reason for saying drivers isn't a problem.
Except for having to get a backported kernel when I bought this laptop in 2022 to get support for the WLAN/bluetooth chip, everything has worked flawlessly, with daily suspend/resume and reboots mainly on kernel changes (and the odd libc and similar change, but they usually come at the same time).
So my own experience colors my opinions....
https://steinar.bang.priv.no/2022/07/31/installing-debian-11-bullseye-using-pxe-boot-on-an-acer-aspire-5-a515-45-laptop/
(currently running 12.8 "bookworm")
@steinarb 6.11.6 and 6.11.7 don't work for me. The wifi won't wake from sleep with a timeout message. Every device under the sun has Windows support, but Linux support is an afterthought if it exists at all. Many times it's reverse engineered by volunteers. At least drivers are one of my biggest issues. All too easy getting a device without working drivers.
@simendsjo Yeah, maybe I was just lucky.
But it has been two years now of trouble free operation, with daily use, where everything I've tried on the laptop works: video, sound, wifi, bluetooth (MX master mouse in daily usage, Jabra Solemate mini almost daily, streaming music).
So I have basically forgotten that issues might exist... sorry about that!
("works on my machine!", as the saying goes...)
@steinarb my Lenovo laptops has also been working great, but it has all been Intel wireless, and I have never tested all hardware features (e.g. infrared camera or fingerprint reader.) But I agree it's a lot better than it used to be. I think my latest issue was DisplayLink in a meeting room, which only has vendor drivers packaged for Ubuntu. So I need to add support for my distro.
Jona Joachim@steinarb
Say that to my wifi
Say that to my wifi
Sami Juvonen@andrewt This has never been a worry I’ve had in almost 30 years of using Linux personally and professionally.
Is this something about gamers and not people using computers for productivity?
@sjuvonen tbh I've not had much issue either, but then, I've mostly used prebuilt systems with well chosen hardware and a bunch of very standard input devices, I suspect these days the issue is mostly confined to Weird Stuff, so yeah, gamers and particular kinds of nerds maybe?
CohenTheBlue@andrewt @sjuvonen For gaming there might be issues on nvidia but amd has been great to use with the open source amdgpu drivers for over a decade at least. Once something is working, it'll almost always work forever on Linux.
Gaming using Proton via steam is seamless. Heroic launcher for GOG and Epic games is a community effort to create a similar experience for those platforms.
Use gamemode (for example set launch option "gamemoderun %command" on steam) to have better graphics performance.
🅵
CaptainMalu@sjuvonen @andrewt actually. We at work had some "problems" with the drivers for the thinkpad usb-c dockingstations.
We had to search a little bit and the driver is only available as deb package. So installing and updating on a fedora is system is a little bit annoying.
With my nvidia card I don't have any problems. But I'm not a gamer so maybe I just don't see the problems.
derptron@sjuvonen @andrewt I was using Linux around the same time and I had tons of issues with drivers. I was able to solve almost all of them, but it was often non-trivial. A good portion of sound cards of that era for example were hard to get working--driver issues AND PnP issues.
Hell, just getting online was a thing. I remember calling up my dial-in ISP to say their modem connection chat was sending html instead of login prompt and they all just drunkenly laughed.
Alexia 
no this is more like "damn I need to get WiFi on this somehow, hm, let's go the quick route for now and get a dongle"
you then proceed to plug it in and are greeted with an old and obscure realtek chipset that doesn't have drivers that work on any modern version of the Linux kernel
Frederik@sjuvonen @andrewt It can be a worry for brand new, very specific hardware. Either obscure consumer laptops (looking at you, Asus) or (speaking from experience) either old or brand new (often closed/proprietary) ethernet stuff like Broadcom or Tehuti phys. If you stick to hardware that's either open or a year old, you won't have any problems.
Major Denis Bloodnok@sjuvonen @andrewt I think in my time (likewise over the 25 year mark) I've had trouble with some Ethernet cards; some SCSI cards; Winmodems; there was a long period when wireless needed binary blobs which probably weren't in the install so now you have to find a way to get them on, and so forth.
I'll grant you I've had more trouble with Windows going "haha we don't support that anymore, tough luck".
Smart Fox@andrewt both are not really a Problem (at least in some parts in the world)
mhoye@andrewt I'm in this picture and I don't like it.
danwwilson 
-dsr- (not a dog)True for cyclists, other drivers... and Windows users, these days. Linux, not so much.
Linux problems tend to be along the line of "new computer, why won't you sleep?". So Linux users and new parents, I guess?
@dashdsrdash the thing is I've got a nice framework Linux computer and it actually sleeps more reliably then my work macbook 🙃
Oh, it's not universal, it's just common.
hazelnot 
@dashdsrdash @andrewt unless you have an Nvidia card or a network adapter that the kernel doesn't support, which apparently is most of them available in countries like Brazil, according to a Brazilian friend o.o
Enrico@dashdsrdash @andrewt isn’t that a driver problem?
El Duvelle
m0xEE@andrewt
Cyclists who are also linux users must have unbearable levels of driver anxiety 😱
Cyclists who are also linux users must have unbearable levels of driver anxiety 😱
Samofhearts@andrewt drivers: constant anxiety about when a cyclist will run a red light directly infront of you or swerving in and out of traffic erradically. There is no if, only when.
@samofhearts the fuck are you taking about? cyclists often run red lights to wait a few feet further along, or if they're turning into a bike lane or whatever, sure, but I've never seen a cyclist just randomly move out into the path of oncoming traffic, that's just not a thing that happens, because evolution very does not select for those cyclists, and even if it did happen it would barely scratch your paintwork. meanwhile, three motorists have cut right across my lane and actually endangered my life, so how about you shut the hell up blaming the most vulnerable road users for your own dangerousness with exactly the same energy as a man reading some sexual assault statistics and responding "sure, but women always take ages in the bathroom, am i rite fellas?"
@andrewt I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about or upset about with women. I'm sorry if you're a misogynist. <- Twitter is that way.
Obviously we live in different places and have different experiences. We can learn from each other rather than hate, but whatever floats your boat man.
Where I live in a city, like actual city not a suburbs near a city. The cyclist never stop or even slow down for red lights, they just go straight through them with the pedestrian walk sign and then continue on the road. They need to follow the rules of the road, but they don't. They follow their own rules and they make it very dangerous for pedestrians and any cars that are turning with a green arrow.
Finally, I like how you assume I'm a dangerous driver based on literally nothing. I'm a pedestrian you donut. These cyclist going 20 on the pedestrian walk because they don't want to stop at a red light are going to do a lot more than scratch my or my child's "paint."
Have a good day brother. choose love not hate.
@samofhearts so to be clear your complaint is that sometimes when you are crossing a road, a cyclist will also cross the road?
@andrewt My concern is they have a complete disregard for any law or rule of the road. If they want to be on the road or bike lanes. Sweet, follow the same laws and rules cars have to follow so that everything is predictable.
@samofhearts Why does that concern you? If cyclists are actually endangering anyone then *that* should be your concern. If they're just ignoring rules that patently don't matter then why do you care?
Space Hobo@andrewt I want to thank you for this subthread, as it identified @[email protected] as a really good candidate for a block.
@samofhearts @andrewt Essentially all motorists break the law routinely, and _they_ kill multiple people every day doing it.
Laust@samofhearts @andrewt
Reasons why cyclists don't always use bike lanes: https://youtu.be/fDf8CwcBdiw?si=WzrDbKL017xexCC-
Reasons why cyclists don't always use bike lanes: https://youtu.be/fDf8CwcBdiw?si=WzrDbKL017xexCC-
Why Don’t Cyclists Use Bike Lanes?
Kiudecan@samofhearts take the wisdom from this vid. It s a gift to you
Tor Kingdon
It's funny 'cause it's true
nev@andrewt *sigh* it me
🚲 murph@andrewt I'm both of these. I may worry too much.
schuelermine@andrewt I have literally never worried about drivers on Linux but I did worry about them sometimes on Windows
Linux has other problems
Linux has other problems
na sàistean 𓆩♡𓆪 (Clover)
revphil@andrewt so many Linux bike nerds out there
Quark Maker@andrewt I'm not a gamer and I don't have any Nvidia hardware, but another concern we've had is the migration to Wayland. I just did a one year stint using Fedora 40 with the KDE Plasma desktop, and it was really a breath of fresh air with Plasma 6.
At the moment, I'm back to Linux Mint because it's simply easier to get things done when you don't have to screw around. They do a wonderful job taking Canonical's already amazing job and focusing it for traditional desktop users.
0xC0DEC0DE07EA@andrewt cyclists with e-bikes must be absolutely losing it
friolily@andrewt lol I almost never have to worry about drivers on linux.
meanwhile, I've never managed to install windows on real hardware (not for lack of trying) because of driver issues...
Derek@andrewt I was thinking about buying an electric mtb the other day and a question came up:
Is it going to be compatible with Linux?
jer@andrewt The last time I "worried" about Linux driver support for a peripheral device is slightly more than fifteen years ago. The device was a pointing device I wanted to buy and try out, and the worry was its "proprietary" use of an otherwise strictly USB HID protocol. I checked the commit log and, yes indeed, support had already been added. So I bought it and have used it ever since.
Lord Caramac the Clueless, KSC@andrewt Finding drivers for Windows is much more of a problem nowadays. Even for many rather rare and outdated pieces of hardware, drivers are quite often part of the regular vanilla Linux kernel, while it is near impossible to find any Windows 10 or 11 drivers for a 15 year old printer or scanner which otherwise still works perfectly.
a_s_tarantoga@andrewt So true 😀
Johannes Jacobs 🏳️🌈@andrewt i thought that was a Windows thing.
拔刀问路--经常截图评论
Wattana's Place of Brainrot@andrewt never had to worry about drivers again ever since switching to amd gpu. everything just works.
hell, a lot of printers are pretty much plug and play. only had to install a driver for one, and the os basically brings out the package manager page for you.
Random@andrewt The only time I had to worry about drivers with Linux was when I had a laptop with an NVIDIA GPU. All other times the kernel had already all the drivers I may need. Windows gave me more headaches
Dr. Camille
Tim
martin@andrewt I feel seen