Mastodawn

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES

#Election2024 might hinge on #Michigan, which might hinge on #American #Muslims

"#Muslim faith leaders endorse #Harris"

“She is a committed ceasefire candidate too and is the best option for ending the bloodshed in #Gaza and now #Lebanon”

#Imams argued that Trump is a threat to their community

"Knowingly enabling someone like Donald #Trump to return to office, whether by voting directly for him or for a 3rd party candidate, is both a moral and a strategic failure"

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/kamala-harris/muslim-faith-leaders-endorse-kamala-harris-rcna174190

Muslim faith leaders endorse Kamala Harris

A group of imams endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris in an open letter shared first with NBC News, a critical win for the Democrat as she steps up her efforts to win back disaffected Muslim voters amid the Israel-Hamas war.

NBC News

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

“Particularly in swing states, a vote for a third party could enable Trump to win that state and therefore the elections"

“Given [#Trump’s] well-documented history of harming our communities and country, as well as what he has promised he will do to #Muslims and #Palestinians should he return, it is incumbent upon us not to allow our high emotions to dictate our actions to our detriment"

...leaders have “a responsibility, an #Amana, not to place our community in harm’s way"

Mastodon Migration Oct 7, 2024

This is a very important endorsement. To those who may be thinking of not voting for Harris, please reconsider. The people you want to protect are asking you to vote for Harris. It's horrible what is happening now, but if Trump wins, more Palestinians will die. If you care about Palestinian lives there is no other moral choice. It's ugly. War is ugly. But not voting for Harris will kill more of the people you profess to support.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@mastodonmigration

problem is its emotional

i ask those who choose not to vote or vote 3rd party:

should someone feeling betrayed respond by destroying themselves?

a friend ghosts you. so you get in a fist fight with a rando

a lover spurns you. so you get drunk and get behind the wheel

etc

people do that. self-destruction as a response to rage and frustration is very human

and there's forces in the world working very hard to make sure you have that response, politically

don't!

Mastodon Migration Oct 7, 2024

This is a morally complex matter. People are justifiably angry about the horror. What this letter underscores is that it can and will get a lot worse under a second Trump administration. The people closest to the situation know this, and are asking supporters to vote for Harris.

“I am really hopeful that with this letter a lot of people will change their minds,” Elsanousi said. “The momentum [for Harris] in the community is growing.”

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@mastodonmigration

not voting, emotionally: what you care about gets worse

voting, strategically: what you care about improves

on any topic in the entire world, including #Gaza:

'The [group of American] imams argued that former President Donald #Trump is a threat to their community.

“Knowingly enabling someone like Donald Trump to return to office,

>>>whether by voting directly for him or for a third-party candidate, is both a moral and a strategic failure<<<"'

#vote #election2024

Mastodon Migration Oct 7, 2024

Understand that this situation is very clear to you, but many see all the killing, are horrified, and want to do something to help. They think not voting can help. Perhaps hearing the request to vote for Harris directly from those they intend support will give them a basis to change their minds.

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce @mastodonmigration

Harris is not the LEADER that we deserve. She will just be the one that we get because the type of leader we deserve lacks the ambition to endure everything our meat grinder of a system demands. It's specifically engineered to exclude the very best of us. Being able to survive and outlast that meat grinder is not evidence of a leader.

We will vote for Kamala Harris while remembering the bargain being struck and what we're sacrificing to avoid a worse consequence.

The emotion we will feel won't be elation, it will be relief.

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

Unless, and until, we get Ranked Choice Voting,... Which will Begin to reverse the effects of polarization... It's always going to be a compromise candidate.

But voters need to start focusing and speak out on state elections to get ballot measures for RCV. It can only work from the ground up, from the state level.

@benroyce @mastodonmigration

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@chiclet @benroyce @mastodonmigration

I wrote about ranked-choice earlier today. By itself it won't resolve the current state of affairs. It's only part of the solution.

https://autistics.life/@VulcanTourist/113263258395790632

VulcanTourist (@[email protected])

@[email protected] Ranked-choice voting WILL NOT solve our leadership problem. The reason is simple: those who are hyper-ambitious, wealthy, and influential continue to enjoy enormously outsized advantages in the electoral process: virtually no one who isn't wealthy and influential even has opportunity to be a candidate. Some people think it's as simple as "getting Big Money out" of politics and nullifying the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling. It's not. At this point, there is only ONE means to eliminate the scourge of wealthy sociopaths from our governments: injecting a RANDOM element into the beginning of the process that levels the field and guarantees that no one has any more probability of progressing further in the process, regardless how popular or wealthy he might be. Ranked-choice voting might play a role with how that proceeds past the random stage. This is the only way that we can reclaim our government FOR and BY the People, by reducing wealthy sociopaths to the level of just citizens with no advantages to exploit in the process.

Autistics Life Community

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

it's as good as you get

#rankedchoicevoting #RCV allows you to vote your conscience

rather than always having to play this game of holding your nose and voting strategically

by ranking your choices, you still allow for your fallback candidate to win should your unicorn ideal choice not prevail

that will bring more nonvoters off the sidelines who currently can't bring themselves to #vote in our shitty #FPTP system, no matter how clear the stakes

Negative12DollarBill Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce @VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Ranked choice voting is amazing.

It allows me to vote for the Green Party first.

I know they won't get in.

But when they don't get in, the vote cascades down to Labor and then the Labor party knows I would like them more if they were more like the Greens.

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@negative12dollarbill @benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

> ... and then the Labor party knows I would like them more if they were more like the Greens.

Now how would they know that unless you plan to make all these ranked-choice votes a matter of public record?

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @negative12dollarbill @chiclet @mastodonmigration

they are

voting results are public

they see a surge in green votes

Negative12DollarBill Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration
How are you going to have an election where the votes are not a matter of public record?

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@negative12dollarbill @benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Yes, the final tallies would be communicative enough. I was picturing them knowing *your* personal choice(s).

Negative12DollarBill Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration
They know my personal choices. They just can't trace them back to me, same as every other type of election.

Snail Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @negative12dollarbill @benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Indirectly it would be on the public record because, I'd hope, the returning result would include the intermediate results and reallocations.

You might not get the full set of rankings but you'd know that, e.g. Green was knocked out in the first round and 76% of their votes were reallocated to Labour

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

It'll be the full record. Even if it doesn't go into a runoff round... I all the votes are still known and that data is still available.

@VulcanTourist @negative12dollarbill @benroyce @mastodonmigration

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Ranked-choice or not, the first round of selection needs to be random, as with jury selection. We trust that randomized jurisprudent system with literal life-and-death decisions.

Now imagine for just a moment if we did that any other way that created a popularity contest? If you think our system of justice is imperfect now... it would be MUCH worse if we handled that like we do elections for so-called public servants.

Ranked-choice alone doesn't get the system where it needs to be.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

there is no such thing as a #voting system which perfectly captures the intentions of the #electorate

all you can do is do better, and #rcv is better than #fptp. so we choose better

it's not about perfection. it never was and never will be

(there's voting systems even better than #rankedchoicevote, like #singletransferablevote, but the momentum in the #usa right now is behind ranked choice #vote, so we go for that, for now)

https://youtu.be/l8XOZJkozfI

Politics in the Animal Kingdom: Single Transferable Vote

YouTube

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

By itself it would be an improvement, but keeping people thinking about what-else or what-next helps to discourage complacency. We can still do better, and best not to forget it.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

right but we currently only have #rankedchoicevoting #rcv in a few places in the #usa

and the #gop were originally ambivalent or didn't notice

but, since their entire strategy is #votersuppression and #disenfranchisment, the #republicans noticed the threat that greater #voting #freedom means, so they made a nationwide stand against it:

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/05/nx-s1-4969563/ranked-choice-voting-bans

getting a ranked choice #vote will be hard enough as it is

altruios phasma Oct 13, 2024

@benroyce @VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration
Rated choice is the way to go.
Ranked doesn’t solve the spoiler effect, is still subject to arrow’s impossibility theorem.

But rated is simpler to implement, and is more representative. Educate your senator about the difference. Rated is what people actually want: a system where you vote FOR someone instead of AGAINST someone.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rated_voting

Rated voting - Wikipedia

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 13, 2024

@altruios @VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

No argument. There are better #voting systems.

But I'm going all in on #rankedchoicevoting #rcv in the #USA because it currently has the most momentum, it's an obvious improvement over #fptp bullshit, and it will be hard enough as it is to get even that.

altruios phasma Oct 13, 2024

@benroyce @VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration ranked it is 10% better (still has a spoiler effect). Rated is 1000% better. Don’t take the slice you can sneak away when the cake is on the table. Take the cake.

cjm Oct 18, 2024

@altruios @benroyce @VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

I found this article to do a great job of contrasting the two different sets of values at work in the Rank vs Score (Rate) discussion.

https://democracysos.substack.com/p/alaska-election-results-show-why

“The voting method used is fundamental to any political system because when you select a particular method for your elections you are selecting a set of values and philosophy of government…”

Alaska election results show why Condorcet is obsolete

Condorcet advocates use the wrong standard for evaluating Ranked Choice Voting elections

DemocracySOS

iwein Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist
I'm curious what you think is the ultimate best way to govern. I settled on sociocracy for now, which is in some way anarchy with norms. This severely undermines states, and other large centralized power structures, but I think that's the way to go anyway.

#rcv sounds like a big step forward, so if you object to that step, I would beg for a final goal and a better step forward.

Hope you don't mind me joining the fun.

@benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @benroyce @mastodonmigration

I think complacency isn't the biggest barrier.
It seems like people get hung up on impractical solutions that are simply impossible to implement because it would require a constitutional amendment. A top-down approach requiring 2/3 of states to ratify, is simply infeasible.
In a hyperpolarized environment, you're asking the master's tools to dismantle the master's house. It's not going to happen. And people get frustrated with this.

There are a thousand ways not to make a light bulb. And I think it's worth focusing on the fewer pathways that are possible from the ground up. And that is incrementally, through the states. Yep, all 50 of them.

And seeing how long and difficult the process was for Alaska, it's still a significant grind to accomplish. But it proves it can be done.

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@iwein @benroyce @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Something like sociocracy would be acceptable. Truth be told, we the people don't NEED states, but we've been indoctrinated to believe that we do. You and I know who the continuation of states truly benefits.

I haven't objected to ranked-choice. I object to stopping with that as an end-game.

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @iwein @chiclet @mastodonmigration but like everything in life it's not just about articulating the better system, it's about how to get there

VulcanTourist Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce @iwein @chiclet @mastodonmigration

The articulation comes first.

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

I disagree that articulation should come first.

You wind up just developing a fantasy that is impossible to realize. Politics is not like designing an architecture that you can just build from scratch. Maybe if we just won a revolution we can just do that, but it's not 1776.

So I don't think we can just articulate with the end in mind. There is no end game here.

We improve what we have using the best tools we have available.

Think decision tree, rather than blueprint.

@benroyce @iwein @mastodonmigration

iwein Oct 7, 2024

@chiclet
We need some (possibly vague) articulation of a goal before we can decide on steps towards it?

@VulcanTourist mentioned no objections to #rcv, so I think we're already getting sort of on the same page here.

Can we get the step done? What could be next after it?

@benroyce @mastodonmigration

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@iwein @chiclet @VulcanTourist @mastodonmigration

It's not a problem, it's just two different conversations

You and Vulcan are the theorists, talking about what is possible, and Chiclet and I are the engineers, focused on what we can build now

So it's just a matter of we have two groups here with different priorities. Which is fine, we're all just chatting on Mastodon. Both discussions are perfectly valid

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @iwein @chiclet @mastodonmigration

Correct and we're just chatting on Mastodon so it's all good.

But after we all agree on something better, how do we get there. That's where things get really difficult.

So I try to focus on what we can do, rather than what the best thing possible to do is. That's my angle. It's like an engineering problem to me.

If we can do ABCDE then maybe we can do FGHIJ and then KLMNO. But first we need ABCDE.

iwein Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce
I'd even go as far as thinking about multiple desirable scenarios and going for the step that has the best probability distribution for all of them, weighted for desirability.

Right now, ultra short term, 'not Trump' has a very big appeal to me 😅

@VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@iwein @VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration indeed! Trump has to lose or we're all fucked

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

But that's the trap of fantasy. An idealization of a type of government that would be perfect for you.

It's a trap because it paralyzes people and makes them think that nothing can be done because their perfect ideal can't be done. "Perfect being the enemy of the good".

I don't think anybody suggests that RCV is an end game. Democracy doesn't have an end game. It's all about continual improvement.

@iwein @benroyce @mastodonmigration

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @mastodonmigration

Unfortunately, STV would require a major US constitutional amendment. Multimember districts are currently unconstitutional.

RCV can be done today, but only by the states.

If we ever get to the point where we're talking a constitutional convention, we can start to change things that are baked in to the Constitution, like the electoral college and maybe get multi-member districts.

But I think our focus is best to try for voting systems that are achievable by state law and already exists in some places. Not only with RCV, but the electoral college has much less of a negative effect, when you don't have the winner take all aspect. Maine and Nebraska have it already.

#voting #electorate #rcv #fptp #rankedchoicevote #singletransferablevote #usa #vote

Joe Oct 7, 2024

@chiclet @benroyce @VulcanTourist @mastodonmigration A constitutional convention would be a disaster. The whole of it could be rewritten and in effect all laws could become invalid. Let's not do that. Red states outnumber blue states.

Doug Oct 7, 2024

@chiclet @benroyce @VulcanTourist @mastodonmigration Multi-member districts are not unconstitutional. They are currently prohibited by a federal statute (law). That law could be changed by Congress passing a new law. The Fair Representation Act would adopt multi-member districts with #STV for the US House of Representatives. Check it out. https://fairvote.org/our-reforms/fair-representation-act/
#rcv #rankedchoicevoting

Fair Representation Act - FairVote

The Fair Representation Act is the bold solution that solves the problems of gerrymandering and uncompetitive elections for U.S. House.

FairVote

enmodo ⚛️ 🧬 🇺🇦 🍉Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce
This is another about voting systems. https://youtu.be/qf7ws2DF-zk

The key is don't let perfect be the enemy of good. There are many on the Left and Right who throw up there hands and say "unless it's perfect I don't want it". Of course their motivations are very different but the Left should definitely push for something better than the tyranny of the first past the post duopoly creating system we have now.

@VulcanTourist @chiclet @mastodonmigration @WizardBear

Why Democracy Is Mathematically Impossible

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

YouTube

Chiclet Oct 7, 2024

I think you have the causes and effects backward a bit.

The reason why it seems only the super wealthy can be candidates in the general election, is because of the two party system. The "polarization" refers to having only two poles in which a handful of candidates raise significant funds from a small group of mega donors that gravitate only towards either of the two parties.
But with ranked choice voting, it is much easier for a grassroots fundraising operation to use small donors. Instead of vying to become a nominee of either the Democrats or the Republicans, they just need enough small donors and signatures to get on the ballot.

Sure, they might be out spent, but if they have broad appeal with the masses, they can be very successful at pulling the candidates towards the center.

Even better, if the D and R candidates are so far to the extremes,... Even a poorly funded, broadly appealing moderate candidate could actually win the election by being nobody's first choice but most peoples second choice.

RCV doesn't directly get money out of politics, but it makes money less relevant when campaigns have to focus on broad appeal rather than pandering to the minority uberwealthy donor class.

@benroyce @mastodonmigration

ᴮᵉⁿ ᴿᵒʸᶜᵉVOTE IN THE PRIMARIES Oct 7, 2024

@VulcanTourist @mastodonmigration

that's the way it always was, is, and will be

there is no magic savior candidate coming

there never will be

let's say they did come:

we find some imperfection, everyone has one, amplify it to high holy hell, and bellyache about the vast and horrid betrayal

that's the way us humans roll: we're nasty assholes

the problem is not our potential leaders

the problem is us

the only way to #vote is strategy: bad, or less bad

*never* emotion

that's it

forever

wlf_warren Oct 7, 2024

@benroyce @VulcanTourist @mastodonmigration

use to say better not have any skeletons in your closet if you run for election!

Now you do not have to, they just...make one up!

meh.. 😟😒😒😒

Ralph058 (S/he/it) AF4EZ Oct 7, 2024

@mastodonmigration @benroyce
All Palestinians living in the Levant will die under a TFG-Bibi onslaught. They have said they will eliminate them.
Any Palestinians outside the area which have held position of authority will be slain. Trump has already said he will deport Muslims by redefining the meaning of illegal aliens with respect to the Haitians.

xs4me2 Oct 7, 2024

#trump is a threat to the USA, #unfit for any public office…

Horror Author Reed Alexander Oct 7, 2024

Cue the secret Muslim smears.