Cory DoctorowJun 26, 2024

EVs won't save the planet. Ultimately, the material bill for billions of individual vehicles and the unavoidable geometry of more cars-more traffic-more roads-greater distances-more cars dictate that the future of our cities and planet requires public transit - *lots* of it.

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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:

https://pluralistic.net/2024/06/26/unplanned-obsolescence/#better-micetraps

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Pluralistic: Cleantech has an enshittification problem (26 Jun 2024) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Show threadPeter Brown

@pluralistic two unintended consequences of the move towards electric vehicles is that they are at their best on short journeys, not travelling transcontinental.
And they are also at their best at speeds under 40 miles an hour, becoming very greedy over 60.

Both of these factors will help modal shift to mass transit across longer distances and should help to reduce average traffic speeds.

Jun 26, 2024 at 7:54pmWeb
Show threadKorma ChameleonJun 26, 2024
@peterbrown @pluralistic I honestly think that every train station should have car rental. Normally when I need a car it's for a few kilometres of details
Show threadPeter BrownJun 26, 2024
@KormaChameleon @pluralistic most rental companies will deliver to stations, and most stations in this country have connecting buses.
Show threadKorma ChameleonJun 26, 2024
@peterbrown @pluralistic Which country?
Show threadPeter BrownJun 26, 2024
@KormaChameleon @pluralistic Scotland
Show threadBrianaryJun 26, 2024
@peterbrown
@pluralistic
The US needs much more investment in rail before we can stop using cars, particularly in the Pacific Northwest, where train service is perfunctory at best. I really hoped this would be a major benefit of Biden in the White House.
Show threadArandmoorJun 26, 2024

@brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic Then weigh-in in favor of CA's HSR project when billionaire-owned papers like the NYT run hit-pieces or someone uses the word "boondoggle" to describe it (nobody uses "boondoggle". That word came down as a requirement in a memo because some rich-fogey thinks they know better).

Help us keep the air clear and get the HSR built and people like me will help by raising our voices when the CA project is complete to continue extending the rails north towards Seattle.

Show threadBrianaryJun 26, 2024

@arandmoor
@peterbrown @pluralistic
I don't really read newspapers, in part due to them being by and for fogeys.

Seattle was on a good path until one engineer set them back, probably by a decade. Who knows when Spokane, created as a rail town, will get any kind of decent service. Right now, it's about 2am LSR or nothing.

Show threadChucklesJun 26, 2024
@brianary @arandmoor @peterbrown @pluralistic newspapers hate anything the car dealers tell them to hate.
Show threadArandmoorJul 3, 2024

@brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic

Honestly, Seattle should just leave Spokane behind.

They voted no on a N/S freeway that would have cost millions in the '80s for so long it's now costing them billions since they broke ground 20 years ago, and it's still not done.

Likewise they voted no on light rail between Spokane and Coeur d'alene despite the fact it would have meant building a light rail line between the valley and the downtown.

Spokane is anti-progress to their own detriment.

Show threadDan McDonaldJun 26, 2024

@arandmoor @brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic

AIUI HSR in California is in no small part bogged down by NIMBY/anti-growth types.

https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-build-nothing-country

https://www.railway-technology.com/features/will-california-ever-get-its-high-speed-rail/

The Build-Nothing Country

Stasis has become America's spoils system, and it can't go on.

Noahpinion
Show threadDan McDonaldJun 26, 2024

@arandmoor @brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic

Same kind of thinking keeps other sensible transit things from happening. In my own backyard, e.g., the North-Station/South-Station connector which would make Boston a proper transit hub instead of a bifurcated one.

Show threadChucklesJun 26, 2024
@danmcd @arandmoor @brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic that one is maddening. $20+ billion for a car tunnel but a TRAIN tunnel is somehow mysteriously out of reach.
Show threadDan McDonaldJun 26, 2024

@celeduc @arandmoor @brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic

Over on BSky, as the NYC congestion pricing got suspended, someone called for the elimination of franchised car dealers, as they sabotage anything not helping them out. (And their light-R districts need to be swung D.)

Monopoly concerns aside, I very much understand that POV.

Show threadChucklesJun 27, 2024
@danmcd @arandmoor @brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic NY state Democratic party governors are mid-20th century Republicans in drag.
Show threadCodhisattvaJun 26, 2024
@brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic those tracks in the PNW are not safe. Entire new rails, stations and cities would need to be built east of the cascades in WA and OR to improve service.
Show threadBrianaryJun 26, 2024
@Codhisattva
@peterbrown @pluralistic
I don't know about cities and stations, but I agree we need to lay new track.
Show threadCodhisattvaJun 27, 2024

@brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic there’s just not the kind of places that’ll support a passenger rail. Klamath Falls and Bend and Pendleton? Susanville? Walla Walla?

The trains can’t follow the I5 corridor.

Show threadTim Ellis 🦝Jun 26, 2024
@brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic It's so absurd that if I want to take a train from Seattle to Spokane or Leavenworth, there's literally only one per day, and it's at an annoyingly inconvenient time.
Show threadMorgan AldridgeJun 26, 2024
@brianary @peterbrown @pluralistic It seems odd to say, but New England too! Vermont, for example, only _finally_ re-opened the western rail line to Amtrak a year or two ago. That left a single rail line serving southeast to central to northwest! We're a tiny state, but towns are located in small valleys between several mountain ranges, so long travel times by car (or bus in rare cases) to the few rail stations are necessary. I can't imagine New Hampshire & Maine are much better.
Show threadferricoxideJun 26, 2024
@peterbrown @pluralistic

What percentage of people making transcontinental trips are driving rather than already using mass transit? Feels like you'd be looking at a very small win if even 100% of such travelers opted for other than personal cars? That fraction not already traveling by plane, train or even bus, also seem the least likely to trade in their ICE for EVs, even if you corrected the charging-network deficit. I mean, one of the huge reasons for slow EV uptake is acquisition cost and cost is often a significant factor in the "do I fly or do I drive" calculus.
Show threadPeter BrownJun 27, 2024
@ferricoxide @pluralistic I understand that it is a big issue in the USA.
Show threadJohn DetersJun 27, 2024
@peterbrown @pluralistic Almost all passenger vehicles become "very greedy" over 60, regardless of fuel type. EVs just put the power number conveniently on the dashboard so you can see it for yourself.
Show threadOggieJun 27, 2024

@targetdrone @peterbrown @pluralistic
You know what the single biggest trend that lowered fuel usage and also lowered average car speed across the board, when they finally did a huge study over it? (I wish I could find the in depth thing, but my google-fu is weak)

It was the move to show active efficency on the dashboard. It turns out, if you see that your fuel MPG (this was pre electric) drops when you do something, the average driver...doesn't do it as much.

Always stuck in my brain.

Show threadDominicJun 27, 2024
@targetdrone @peterbrown @pluralistic ... because air resistance becomes very significant. It would be much better if cars could drive very close behind each other, so the first car pushes the air out of the way, and the rest ride along in the slipstream. This would require very advanced self driving or perhaps even better just mechanically coupling the cars together so they all move as one long unit...
Show threadahoyboyhoyJun 27, 2024
@dominic @targetdrone @peterbrown @pluralistic huh, never considered coupling cars together... into a... train. Damn, we already had the answer all along, again!
Show threadDominicJun 27, 2024
@ahoyboyhoy @targetdrone @peterbrown @pluralistic you could make it even more efficient by replacing the relative rough road, and soft tires... with something really smooth and hard. You could eliminate most of the rolling resistance that way. Perhaps you could even have the road configured with grooves the wheels fit into so you don't even need to steer, like mechanical "self driving". It would also be much cheaper than making a whole 2d surface the car can move around on when it only actually wants to move _along_ it. So, long skinny hard smooth roads.... could call it a "rail road" or something!?
Show threadJohn DetersJun 30, 2024
@ahoyboyhoy @dominic @peterbrown @pluralistic The concept has been bandied about for decades. One car acts as a pilot, and as cars enter the road traveling in the same direction, they would auto-navigate to follow the previous car just inches apart. The problems are in the safety: what happens when a system fails, or a pilot makes a bad decision, etc. Plus nobody would want to be the pilot, because they still have the expense of breaking wind.
Show threadahoyboyhoyJun 30, 2024
@targetdrone @dominic @peterbrown @pluralistic not to mention that we could just build more rail and then focus additional efforts on last mile optimizations.
Show threadDominicJun 30, 2024
@targetdrone @ahoyboyhoy @peterbrown @pluralistic take turns bring in front of course
Show threadListerine Lavender MintJun 27, 2024

@targetdrone @peterbrown @pluralistic

I was told once this is because at lower speeds, the dominant component of drag is linear since the air is only compressed around the car. At higher speeds, the drag is proportional to the velocity squared since the air is actually accelerated.

Whether that’s specifically the case or not, there’s a velocity-squared component that’s negligible at low speeds and dominant at higher speeds.

Show threadPeter BrownJun 27, 2024
@thedansimonson @targetdrone @pluralistic I understand that after 30 mph the car will spend more energy pushing air than it will pushing the car.
Show threadListerine Lavender MintJun 27, 2024
@peterbrown @targetdrone @pluralistic as someone who bikes regularly, this doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. You can feel that difference as you get up towards 30 mph
Show threadPeter BrownJun 27, 2024
@thedansimonson @targetdrone @pluralistic yes, pedalling downhill into a headwind is extremely frustrating!!
Show threadToken Sane PersonJun 27, 2024

@thedansimonson @targetdrone @peterbrown @pluralistic

Its worse. The *drag* (force required to keep the speed constant) is proportional to the square of the speed, as you say. But *work* (the energy required) is the force times the distance, and the distance per unit time also increases with the speed. So the *power* (energy per unit time) increases with the *cube* of the speed.

So 2x speed means 8x power. But you get there in half the time. So only 4x the energy.

Show threadMartin RuskovJun 27, 2024
@peterbrown @pluralistic a shift to mass transit is only possible if there's mass transit in the offering.
Show threadSandrew Jun 27, 2024

@peterbrown @pluralistic That's overstated.
With a modern EV, 1000 km (620 mi) is readily done during a single day (10 - 11 h including charging time), and for a long journey a battery EV works well.

Public transport (especially trains & trams) work so much better in cities, including for avoiding the crazy need for so many lanes, parking, etc.

Show threadPeter BrownJun 27, 2024
@Sandrew @pluralistic I have to say I was thinking more of the Americans who think nothing of travelling 1000 or 2000 miles in their cars.
Show threadSandrew Jun 27, 2024
@peterbrown @pluralistic I've driven 3000 km away in my EV, over just a few days to get to where I was going, and others have done much more.