internetarchiveJun 17, 2024

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Let Readers Read | Internet Archive Blogs

Show threadMitex LeoJun 25, 2024
@internetarchive Torrenting is the only way.
Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Jun 25, 2024
@ml @internetarchive bittorrent (and all other current alternatives afaik) don't have any sort of anonymization, so ISPs can surveil torrent peers and cut off your access. it's not clear to me yet how to apply the consistent hashing used in most DHTs to tor's model yet, but tor may expose a sort of internal node ID that could be similarly used to achieve consistent hashing? @torproject has there been work to anonymize DHTs via tor or other alternatives?
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 25, 2024

@hipsterelectron Tor actually has a FAQ asking people to not use Tor for bittorrent because it stresses the network

IPFS has done some work in this space, we're not sure how far along that aspect is

Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Jun 25, 2024
@ireneista their website says ipfs is not private and to use something else if you want privacy i was checking it out yesterday
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 25, 2024

@hipsterelectron oh. drat.

I2p is an overlay network that does support bittorrent, although that falls significantly short of true anonymization, for reasons you can probably already see

Show threadd@nny disc@ mc²Jun 25, 2024
@ireneista tor's anonymity via noise addition is less interesting to me anyway; VPNs can be used to interface but i recall hearing that some VPNs don't like being used for seedboxes. the level of privacy sufficient to mask participation in a particular swarm to an ISP seems less stringent than tor's guarantees and the consistent hashing needed for a DHT seems like something that could be achieved with any other identifier, but masking identity to all other participants in the swarm seems necessary as well and may be more difficult than i'm hoping :(
Show threadCassandrichJun 26, 2024
@hipsterelectron @ireneista Getting a VPS anonymously in a jurisdiction that you DGAF about to run your torrents and logging into it over Tor seems like the safest option that's currently practical.
Show threadLisPi
@dalias @ireneista @hipsterelectron Anonymous payment to those has kept getting more complicated.

It also puts a hard limit on participation for those that can't justify the overhead of anonymous payments.
Jun 26, 2024 at 12:28amWeb
Show thread2¢Jun 26, 2024
@lispi314 @ireneista @hipsterelectron @dalias recommendations?
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@Qbitzerre @dalias @ireneista For anonymous payment?

Zcash (which practically no one takes nor uses, so even just acquiring it will be a flag), Monero (I'm doubtful its security won't be compromised in the long term, I don't think anything is backed by proofs) or GNU Taler (which last I checked no one supports, but it otherwise also benefits from sound mathematical background like Zcash's zk-snark and doesn't have any of the cryptocurrency environment concerns).

So in practical terms you're basically left with money in a security enveloppe or Monero.

Privately acquiring Monero is itself a shitshow, and the best option at this point is peer-to-peer exchanges and a few intermediate transfers thereafter for obfuscation (which is subject to Monero's eventual failure, of course).

You certainly could say the situation is disappointing.
Show threadCassandrichJun 26, 2024
@lispi314 @ireneista @Qbitzerre Visa gift card purchased with cash?
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@dalias @lispi314 @Qbitzerre if you take drug-dealer-level precautions around acquiring it, sure, but that's difficult for a reason
Show threadCassandrichJun 26, 2024
@ireneista @lispi314 @Qbitzerre I really don't think pigs are going to go hunting for old grocery store surveillance footage or whatever over a vps halfway around the world that's torrenting. Am I wrong about this?
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@dalias @lispi314 @Qbitzerre over torrents? you're probably right, but it's not anonymous, and there are automated, centralized systems that process that footage these days
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@ireneista @Qbitzerre @dalias Automation sure has made mass surveillance more convenient.
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre no kidding
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@dalias @Qbitzerre @ireneista > Visa gift card purchased with cash?
The particular card numbers tend to be registered to which places they were sold at.

That can give a fairly good idea of operational area.

> if you take drug-dealer-level precautions around acquiring it, sure, but that's difficult for a reason

> I really don't think pigs are going to go hunting for old grocery store surveillance footage or whatever over a vps halfway around the world that's torrenting. Am I wrong about this?

Depending on what you share? Yes. Things that inconvenience feds will absolutely result in that kind of effort, if traffic analysis didn't already screw one over (which it probably did).

As for copyright fascists... most of them haven't /yet/ bothered to do that sort of thing because the low hanging fruit of torrenting in the clear is still a thing. But everything they'd need to start earnest doxing efforts is readily commercially available.

I vaguely recall a few hacktivists getting screwed over in a similar way (point of sale had cameras & they used a currency with no functional obfuscation) as well.
Show thread2¢Jun 26, 2024
@lispi314 @ireneista @dalias yeah I've held zcash from the beginning and I even used to mine it. But you're right, it hasn't caught on. I was looking for recommendations for VPS services.
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@Qbitzerre @dalias @ireneista > I was looking for recommendations for VPS services.

Ah, I don't really have recommendations for those.

I don't really trust them to /not/ at a minimum scan the memory and storage of hosts (though they usually don't alter things), so the main use I see for them is as reverse-proxy endpoints for services running on my own hardware.

At which point nothing really matters beyond them being cheap and having relatively reliable networking.

Note that the aforementioned setup is /not/ for stuff intended to remain private/anonymous. It's mostly relevant if you have to deal with CGNAT nonsense and want to self-host.
Show threadCassandrichJun 26, 2024
@lispi314 @ireneista @Qbitzerre In the context of torrenting you don't have to trust the host. You can verify the file hashes yourself after you get them. It's really just outsourcing risk and bandwidth and temp storage.
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@dalias @Qbitzerre @ireneista Right, yes, my statement was a bit more general uses than specifically applicable to torrenting.
Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024

@lispi314 @ireneista @dalias @Qbitzerre re: Monero you're speaking from absolute ignorance. Monero's underlying technologies are all established, proven crypto primitives. Monero stealth addresses are built on Diffie-Hellman key exchange, no one is breaking those. Monero RingCT has been peer reviewed in a number of journals.

https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1098
https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/321

To say its security lacks formal proofs is simply false, although you could accurately make that assertion about Zcash.

Ring Signature Confidential Transactions for Monero

This article introduces a method of hiding transaction amounts in the strongly decentralized anonymous cryptocurrency Monero. Similar to Bitcoin, Monero is a cryptocurrency which is distributed through a proof of work ``mining'' process. The original Monero protocol was based on CryptoNote, which uses ring signatures and one-time keys to hide the destination and origin of transactions. Recently the technique of using a commitment scheme to hide the amount of a transaction has been discussed and implemented by Bitcoin Core Developer Gregory Maxwell. In this article, a new type of ring signature, A Multi-layered Linkable Spontaneous Anonymous Group signature is described which allows for hidden amounts, origins and destinations of transactions with reasonable efficiency and verifiable, trustless coin generation. The author would like to note that early drafts of this were publicized in the Monero Community and on the bitcoin research irc channel. Blockchain hashed drafts are available in \cite{Snoe}.

IACR Cryptology ePrint Archive
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024

@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre so like, full disclosure here, we have never looked into Monero in particular

but we did sit through a whole talk at PEPR 2023 from someone whose consulting firm specializes in building know-your-customer compliance features for cryptocurrency exchanges

Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre there is an entire parallel set of metadata about cryptocurrency purchases, not stored on the blockchain, for the purpose of complying with KYC laws.
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre any KYC-compliant entity has to not only collect this data when people exchange fiat currency for cryptocurrency, but give it to downstream entities when it's spent
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre since we haven't messed with any of this in quite some years, we have no idea what the current state of play is in terms of where this stuff applies and where it doesn't
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre and perhaps Monero itself has some specific properties that other cryptocurrencies don't, which make this all irrelevant; we're not in a position to say
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre anyway, we're not here to criticize that in particular, but we do think it's important to always be aware that a mere technology will succeed in doing an end-run around the law forever.
Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre the answer to whatever social goals we might have around non-surveillance of finance needs to have a policy dimension, or it will fail
Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024

@ireneista @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre in most cases I agree with this point. But re: Monero, govts themselves have sealed their own fates. By pushing to ban Monero from the regulated centralized crypto exchanges, they've encouraged the community to develop decentralized exchanges, thus losing any chance at maintaining insight or control on its usage. The IRS tried and failed to break Monero's privacy https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/z9j62d/the_irs_bounty_the_full_story/

Now all they can do is pretend it doesn't exist.

Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre oh that's quite interesting, we didn't realize
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@ireneista @Qbitzerre @dalias @hyc Selling the end of financial censorship and mass surveillance is going to be pretty difficult considering it's rooted in other oppression dynamics that are the real motivation for any of it.
Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024

@ireneista @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre all of that is true, but you don't need to obtain Monero from KYC-compliant vendors, nor do businesses that accept Monero payments need to obtain such info.

You can mine Monero yourself on an old smartphone or PC.

Show threadIrenes (many)Jun 26, 2024
@hyc @lispi314 @dalias @Qbitzerre sure, that's quite fair
Show threadLisPiJun 26, 2024
@hyc @Qbitzerre @dalias @ireneista > Monero stealth addresses are built on Diffie-Hellman key exchange, no one is breaking those.

Yet (to public knowledge). Though my expectation of breakage is for it to come down to some nonobvious implementation issue of some sort, rather than a fundamental cryptographic security problem (which admittedly is also a problem with all the other options I mentioned).

> https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1098
> https://eprint.iacr.org/2023/321

> To say its security lacks formal proofs is simply false, although you could accurately make that assertion about Zcash.

I do have to revise some of my statement, I had to refresh my memory on a few things. Both monero's security and zero-knowledge proofs' security rely on computational hardness, which I find rather less reassuring that something based on mathematical truths (since certain changes to computer technology could drastically reduce the effective security provided).

So do consider my prior confidence in the latter withdrawn to a similar degree.
Ring Signature Confidential Transactions for Monero

This article introduces a method of hiding transaction amounts in the strongly decentralized anonymous cryptocurrency Monero. Similar to Bitcoin, Monero is a cryptocurrency which is distributed through a proof of work ``mining'' process. The original Monero protocol was based on CryptoNote, which uses ring signatures and one-time keys to hide the destination and origin of transactions. Recently the technique of using a commitment scheme to hide the amount of a transaction has been discussed and implemented by Bitcoin Core Developer Gregory Maxwell. In this article, a new type of ring signature, A Multi-layered Linkable Spontaneous Anonymous Group signature is described which allows for hidden amounts, origins and destinations of transactions with reasonable efficiency and verifiable, trustless coin generation. The author would like to note that early drafts of this were publicized in the Monero Community and on the bitcoin research irc channel. Blockchain hashed drafts are available in \cite{Snoe}.

IACR Cryptology ePrint Archive
Show threadtrystimuliJun 26, 2024

@hyc @lispi314 @ireneista with the understanding that i don’t expect cryptographically relevant quantum computers any time soon - do you have any references to the implications for ringct and monero of that possibility?

all i’ve got at the moment is kearney & perez-delgado 2021, which seems to be more concerned with stealing than tracing money.

Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024
@tryst @ireneista @lispi314 in a post-quantum world the underlying ed25519 signature scheme would have to be replaced with something else. Lattice-based mechs get tossed around a lot but frankly nobody can really know until we get there. It's assumed that a quantum computer could break the current mechanisms, but when such a day arrives, many other more widely used systems will break and need more urgent attention - e.g. TLS, all banks and other businesses, etc.
Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024
@tryst @ireneista @lispi314 it's been researched before. Monero's proof of work algorithm RandomX (which I co-designed) is known to be quantum proof. https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/kcl547/ama_research_team_analyzing_the_implications_of/
Show threadtrystimuliJun 26, 2024
@hyc @ireneista @lispi314 i’m specifically interested in the implications for tracing existing transactions. those already exist and are public-but-obscured. would a relevant quantum computer unobscure them?
Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024
@tryst @ireneista @lispi314 yes
Show threadHoward Chu @ SymasJun 26, 2024
@tryst @ireneista @lispi314 but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a quantum computer with sufficient qubits to break the Discrete Log Problem here any time soon...
Show threadtrystimuliJun 26, 2024
@hyc @ireneista @lispi314 oh yes, completely agreed on that point.