LaffyMEANWHILE, at #SCOTUS, via Ryan Reilly:
Supreme Court Trump immunity arguments underway.
"There can be no presidency as we know it" without presidential immunity, Trump lawyer John Sauer argues. 🤦🏻♀️
2/ Emptywheel:
Thomas: How do we determine what an official act is?
Ut oh.
3/ Via Scott MacFarlane:
Here comes the first hypothetical question. Chief Justice John Roberts asks ... what about an official act taken by a President (appointing an ambassador)... "for a bribe?"
Roberts - the bribe isn't an official act. But the appointing of an ambassador is one
(NOTE: I’M HAVING ENOUGH PROBLEMS TRYING TO DO ONE THREAD, LET ALONE 2, LET ALONE HAVING A DR APPT SOON… SO I’LL BE CUTTING ALL OF THIS SHORT SOON)
4/ Via MacFarlane:
Justice Sotomayor interjects with next hypothetical.... about what happens if a President orders an assassination.. "for personal reasons"
The DC appeals court used similar hypotheticals in January (Bribes and assassination)
Sotomayor cites amicus briefs received by Supreme Court in this case detailing how founding fathers once considered immunity for President, but didn't include immunity in founding documents of our nation
5/ I’m sure I’ve messed up the thread, and I’m posting when I can.
Elie Mystal:
Every Alito, Thomas, and Gorsuch question is frankly code for "remand."
Roberts is not for remand. This could come down to Barrett.
#SCOTUS
6/ Oy.
Mystal:
Kagan: Can the president order a coup?
Sauer: If it's.. I did the job...
Kagan: CAN THE PRESIDENT ORDER A COUP?
Sauer: YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT HE CAN!
7/ Emptywheel:
Kav now imagining that bc none of the statutes charged have a clear statement that POTUS could be charged.
Murder does not have a clear statement.
Scott MacFarlane:
A Trump-appointed Supreme Court Justice (Gorsuch) and Trump's attorney (Sauer) just did a round of hypothesizing about a future President pardoning himself
Both emphasize that such a prospect is untested and uncertain
8/ Emptywheel:
Kav seems set to say POTUS can't be prosecuted FOR ANY OFFICIAL act unless the crime says POTUS can be prosecuted. But may be willing to let DC District to review for official acts.
9/ Mystal:
Gorsuch is basically pulling his questions from Truth social
Barrett kind of moves us to the ridiculous argument that the President must be impeached first before being prosecuted.
And Barrett is *killing* that argument
10/ Mystal:
Folks... I *think* we might have Barrett on team "no immunity, no remand." But I'll have to see how she handles the government's argument before I'm more confident.
Also, Barrett dissembles a lot in oral arguments about her position. She talks one way but often votes another.
11/ Mystal:
Thomas says presidents in the past have participated in coups, "yet there have been no prosecutions"??
Is this motherfucker serious? His argument is "Every president coups, why is mine getting charged?"
Show more replies
Roberts: "The court of appeals did not get into a focused consideration of what facts we're talking about or what documents we're talking about... they did not look at what courts usually look at when... taking away immunity."
And... that could be the ballgame
12/ Mystal:
Roberts, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh are more worried about a prosecutor going after a president for *political* reasons than A PRESIDENT TRYING TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT.
13/ Emptywheel:
SCOTUS now really bothered that Trump would have to go to trial. This is insanity.
Kav: It's a serious constitutional question whether statutes can be applied to the President.
This is insane.
But I guess he heard Trump's demands.
Gorsuch now wanting to claim an Article II challenge is immunity.
Gorsuch: Let's say President leads mostly peaceful protest in front of Congress, delays proceedings before Congress.
Gorsuch is simply ignoring the violence.
14/ Mystal:
This is just about over.
And by "this" I mean the rule of law and by "over" I mean delayed indefinitely to help Trump.
Gorsuch suggesting that under the government's standard a president could be prosecuted for leading a "civil rights protest" in front of Congress and sought to "influence an official proceeding."
Yes, because Jan 6 and a fucking sit in are the same thing, Neil.
15/ Griffin:
Justice Sotomayor: The president is only explicitly mentioned in a few federal statutes. "Justice Barrett made the point that if we say a president can't be included in a criminal law unless explicitly named, then that would bar the Senate from impeaching him for high crimes or misdemeanor because that means that he's not subject to the law at all."
16/ Justice Jackson: "Why .... [would] the president ... not be required to follow the law when he is performing his official acts? Everyone else — there are lots of folks who have very high-powered jobs and they do so against the backdrop of potential criminal prosecution."
17/ Justice Jackson tells Trump's lawyer that he seems to be "worried about the president being chilled." She argues a "significant opposite problem" would emerge:
"If the pres wasn't chilled, if someone with those kinds of powers, the most powerful person in the world … could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes, I'm trying to understand what the disincentive is from turning the Oval Office into the seat of criminal activity in this country."
18/ Griffin:
Alito: "Did I understand you to say, 'Well, you know, if he makes a mistake, he makes a mistake. He's subject to the criminal laws just like anybody else' You don't think he's in a peculiarly precarious position?"
Michael Dreeben, representing the U.S.: "He's under a constitutional obligation ... he's supposed to be faithful to the laws of the United States and the Constitution of the United States."
"And making a mistake is not what lands you in a criminal prosecution."
19/ Rupar:
so according to Trump's lawyers, if Trump returns to power he could sell all of our most sensitive military secrets to the CCP and he would be completely immune from prosecution so long as he kept it quiet until he left office. This is something SCOTUS is taking seriously!
20/ Via Emptywheel:
Alito again stops Dreeben from talking about the facts of the case.
We're at the point of this horrid hearing where Alito is suggesting it would be bad if the interned Japanese-Americans had recourse for their false imprisonment.
Roberts doesn't want to talk about history.
21/ Emptywheel:
LOLOL. Alito is horrified by the possibility that Presidents will appoint AGs who will rubber stamp their activities.
You know. Like Bill Barr.
Dreeben pretends that hasn't happened.
Alito suggests that if someone loses a close election and thinks they'll be prosecuted, they'll violently oppose it.
Alito really has flipped this entire thing on its head.
Dreeben not pointing out that SCOTUS ruled against Trump. yet?
22/ Emptywheel:
Soto, in really momentous voice, trying to emphasize how important principle that no man is above the law is.
23/ Mystal:
Now onto self-pardons. Alito is just playing all the Fox News hits now.
I'm going to smoke. Biden should send Seal Team 6 to Mar-a-Lago because according to Alito there's no downside.
Alito just suggested that the last election was "questionably decided"
24/ Emptywheel:
Dreeben notes "we are not wild about parties smuggling in other issues on interlocutory appeal."
25/ Via Scott MacFarlane:
Special counsel attorney: Ginning up a false slate of electors is not part of a President’s official job
26/ Mystal:
Kagan is like the first person to be asking about the actual criminal acts Trump is charged with.
I assume Alito is not listening because Kagan is a woman while Gorsuch is probably sitting there emailing the New York Times because they got something wrong on the Spelling Bee.
27/ 🤦🏻♀️Griffin:
Alito: "If an incumbent who loses a very close, hotly contested election & knows that a real possibility after leaving office is not that the pres is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement, but that the pres may be criminally prosecuted … will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country?"
Dreeben, repping the U.S.: "I think it's exactly the opposite, Justice Alito. There are lawful mechanisms to contest the results in an election."
28/ Mystal:
I see the internet is unimpressed with Dreeben but that's being a little unfair. The Republican justices want to do this, there's nothing that Dreeben could say to stop them.
What he *could* be doing was making their hypocrisy more clear for the non-legal media following along.
But... SCOTUS advocates have to preserve their ability to argue another day, and blowing up the justices in one case
A: Doesn't help them actually win the case.
B: Actively hurts them in the next one.
29/ Mystal:
If I could still laugh, I would laugh at this
Joe Patrice:
BREAKING: Supreme Court that blocked vaccine mandates & struck down quarantine orders suddenly VERY concerned about immunity.
30/ These are the last few posts in Mystal's thread:
This could be a men v. women 5-4 ruling.
Men: Let's kick this back to DC to further delay Trump's trial.
Soto, Kagan, Jackson: Why? That's fucking dumb.
Barrett: Ladies, I agree with you, but we shouldn't call the men fucking dumb. We should politely disagree.
31/ Mystal:
We're past the two and half hour mark for an argument where the Republican justices made their decision when they were appointed, some of them decades ago.
KBJ is closing by trying to answer all of Gorsuch's questions, which would be effective if Gorsuch operated in good faith. But... he doesn't. So...
32/ Mystal:
I had hoped that *one* of the liberal justices would have made the point from the Common Cause brief, highlighting that the whole point of what Republican justices are doing is to give Trump delay.
Not a persuasive argument for the justices, but good for the media to hear.
33/ Mystal:
The case is submitted. Court doesn't come back till May 9th which will be a decision day.
But I think they won't decide *this* case until July 3rd for max delay. And that decision will be 5-4 to remand the case back to DC, for additional delay.
I wish I had better news for you. Thanks anyway for following along with our national descent into madness.
34/ Me: IOW, SCOTUS is doing exactly what we know they do and knew they would do in this case.
Sean McCabe@GottaLaff
Assume the worst, hope for something less than perfect.
It's a shitty feeling - knowing this court's recent track record of ignoring precedent and their disregard for district court opinion
@darthstar I always assume the worst with this court
Wilson@GottaLaff
And I remember when they told us in junior high school about the wonderful system of "checks and balances" that keeps our democracy safe.
And I remember when they told us in junior high school about the wonderful system of "checks and balances" that keeps our democracy safe.
@wc_thats_me I also remember all the happy endings in storybooks and movies.
@GottaLaff
me too. Except "Old Yeller" 😭
me too. Except "Old Yeller" 😭
@wc_thats_me I cried so hard at that ending
Urzl@GottaLaff We're out of legal options, aren't we?
They'll delay as long as necessary to make sure he's as good as elected before they have to reveal their allegiance.
Tom Bellin 
@GottaLaff Thanks for these threads. Whatever the courts say, I think people understand crooked rulings like this are not what this country is about.
Republicans are squeezing a dried husk for the last drops of juice. Their electoral reckoning is not far behind.
@tob @GottaLaff The election doesn't matter if SCOTUS waits until Trump is in office (or installing himself with the next coup) to reveal they're declaring him immune to all laws.
There's no legal remedy to this one once it's really rolling.
GFJacobs Is Still Masking@GottaLaff pardon me while I 
🍉 –Hans Bot– 🙃@GottaLaff What if, just as a thought experiment, Biden would preemptively pardon everyone who assaults Republican appointed members of the SCOTUS and their relatives…
@[email protected] In case you weren't paying attention, SCOTUS is pretty sure that you're now allowed to purge Congress until there's no quorum for impeachment and then clear the bench and install a bunch of 25 year old leftists for SCOTUS.
It would be helpful if your administration had any visible interest in this matter.
Brian Vastag@GottaLaff But all of the very savvy lawyers on social media told me Garland was 100% justified in waiting for so fucking long.
And then they said the courts won't save us.
WaPo reported many in DOJ wanted the DJT election case moved immediately. Garland delayed.
@brianvastag Talk to @emptywheel about that.
LAUREN@GottaLaff What they have been paid to do.
Lawrence@GottaLaff NFL really pretty unbelievable
Stone1glo@GottaLaff Can we get Mystal to come over here.
@Stone1glo I've asked. No response, and he responds to me.
RacerX@GottaLaff disgraceful.
Darwin WoodkaI move we immediately appoint Jasmine Crockett to SCOTUS so she can tell the GOP props there what we all think of them.
@darwinwoodka Seconded!
martin lentink 🇪🇺 🇺🇦📎
OldFartPhil@darwinwoodka @GottaLaff I LOVE this! Ms. Crockett is brilliant and top-tier at calling out BS.
PeterThat's it. I'm going to bed. It's gone 4 AM, and the USA is beyond help at this point. Laffy, thanks for your efforts.
@PeterLG Agree, and YVW
NoctisEqui 🇺🇦🇵🇸🇪🇹🏳️🌈@GottaLaff
That’s handy because Uranus, planet of Revolution, Rebellion, and shattering of structures will be transiting the Fixed Star Algol from late June to July 3rd. This star is known for intensity, ferocity and female anger!
Given that during this amazing nation-wide student upheaval Jupiter has transited Uranus, we may get many benefits on the election because of this.
JeanPDeliet@GottaLaff Actually it’s Easy! so to save our democracy Biden must have CIA “officially” assassinate Alito, Thomas (at least Ginni), Gorsuch and Roberts asap… by the time it’s exposed we’ll have a whole new court anyway but also it will be past the time Biden could be “impeached” Please hurry up and do it @potus !!
FuzedI'm guessing there's still an impression that the court is so far above appearance things like media and PR, even among the liberal justices. They're misinformed that they have kept aloof of the base matters
Steve Hersey@GottaLaff
I'm sure that point will be made with some vehemence in closed-door deliberations.
I'm sure that point will be made with some vehemence in closed-door deliberations.
cui bono, baby.@GottaLaff The liberal judges still buy into the collegiality bs, despite the right wingers treating them with utter contempt.
RodneyPetersonTalentAgencyChrist, do I hate this fucking bullshit country.
Brad Patrick@GottaLaff saving this one for posterity. I’m afraid this is the answer.
@GottaLaff I had to share this comments with my hubs, and he said "If women told men they were dumb more often..." and I said: "I tell you that all the time" and he said, "I know, and I'm still alive because of it!"
HistoPol (#HP) 🏴 🇺🇸 🏴@GottaLaff NFL your screen name is becoming bitterly ironic
Pusher of Pixels@GottaLaff and one thing to keep in mind.
As depressing as the corrupt SCOTUS questions are. They are simply following true GOP principle: every accusation is a confession.
All of these ridiculous hypotheticals they offer are *exactly* what the next GOP administration will do to Biden and every other Dem.
We are, ahem, supremely screwed
mark@GottaLaff if you can't win a case because the court is obviously applying personal desires, then not helping win this case is irrelevant, and preserving the right to show up again is meaningless.
MarkRDavid