Mastodawn

Ángel Geldhof Apr 2, 2024

Jon S. von Tetzchner

Congress in the US has banned Copilot for security reasons. I would take it further. Really the way Windows is coded now, it is a significant security problem. The idea that it is unclear whether you are using local data or online data is unacceptable.

This includes:

- Login. Login should be local. You are not logging into a service. You are logging into a computer. The service should be separate from the computer.

- Copilot. Clearly another case where you may not realize that you are sharing data by asking a question.

- OneDrive. Another case where local data is backed up in the cloud, without active actions by you as a user. Backup is great, but you should have to explicitly enable it and there should be a warning that your data may be scanned.

- Windows. In reality even Windows is now a problem given the login issue and any tracking that is happening.

Online cloud services can be great, but one should never be forced into online services or lured into them. Any computer should work fine without having to use OS online services, except basic services, like updates and the like.

#Windows #Linux #Microsoft

https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-congress-bans-staff-use-microsofts-ai-copilot-axios-reports-2024-03-29/

mercurial yapper (now in plasmatrap.com)Apr 1, 2024

@jon I got a new computer recently and I was absolutely shocked that there is no way of getting out of signing into a Microsoft account. The only way to use the computer otherwise is to use a different OS!

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

@writeblankspace

Indeed. It is crazy.

Marta Threadbare Apr 1, 2024

@jon @writeblankspace last time I tried (win11 22h2) before I went back to win10, just removing the ethernet cable and not telling it which wifi to use worked? did they remove that way?

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

@cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

They make it harder for each release. Last time that did not work. Why should one have to use hacks like that?

jahinzee Apr 1, 2024

@jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace I have a suspicion that they might also use A/B testing of random user account policies/blocks too, so one person might find it easy to skip online accounts while another might find it impossible (both on the same version on clean installs)

draeath Apr 1, 2024

@jahinzee @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace how is it supposed to coordinate that when it's offline?

Baron Von J Apr 1, 2024

@jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
Currently if the computer has wifi and it finds nearby networks, you have to open a command prompt and reconfigure the out-of-box-experience to not require network

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-set-windows-11-without-microsoft-account

How to set up Windows 11 without a Microsoft account

If you don't like having a Microsoft account on Windows 11, here's how to get around the problem.

Windows Central

Asta [AMP]Apr 1, 2024

@baronvonj @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace ... I'm sorry, if there's a nearby network the computer has found, Windows... requires you to use it right now? What the fuck?

Baron Von J Apr 1, 2024

@aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
yeah, you can't continue with the out-of-box setup without either connecting wifi and logging in an MS account or reconfiguring OOBE via command-line. It's a garbage take from a company that realizes the future of their revenue is with the subscription cloud services. so they're trying to bundle it all into the OS.

Asta [AMP]Apr 1, 2024

@baronvonj @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace Is it like: if it finds open wifi or just any wifi?

because like, either way, that is a problem. "I see some open wifi, just sign in there!" wuuuuuuuut

Baron Von J Apr 1, 2024

@aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
Actually I think it's if OOBE finds wifi hardware in the computer at all and can load a driver for it.

tallship Apr 2, 2024

@baronvonj @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
k. I've got less than 1337 chars to do this...

First let me say that Vivaldi rocks on Linux.

Okay the horror story you wished you didn't have to live through:

A friend comes over after not following my advice with a brand new hundred dollar Dell laptop to replace her tech challenged (spelled, luddite) husband's old one. It's got no Ethernet port.

Some idiot (me) says I'll migrate everything over. Bad choice. It was "Windows 11 Home edition S Mode".

I started teaching the MCSE program for Microsoft in 1995. I don't allow Microsoft accounts for logins - only Local accounts.

Aside from the OOBE issues, the problem requires one to rip out the "S Mode" part AND go through the other items without ever using a temp microsoft account to do so - much more non--trivial than you think). It's very bad if you create that shell-game temp MS account and will bite your customer later if you do that.

He has a google account as an anchor for Chrome, and 99% of everything he does is either Google Earth or YouTube music VoDs.

I should have shelled out the $17 for an OEM Pro ed., but I'm stubborn. Mission accomplished - eventually.

He uses zero Microsoft apps, yet his wife bought a box that would only run them.

See happy ending in alt-txt for image

⛵

.

elmussol Apr 2, 2024

@tallship @baronvonj @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace blatant misuse of the word Luddite.

https://pluralistic.net/2023/09/26/enochs-hammer/#thats-fronkonsteen

Pluralistic: Brian Merchant’s “Blood In the Machine” (26 Sep 2023) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow

Baron Von J Apr 3, 2024

@elmussol @tallship @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

"The ruling Tories had no sympathy for the workers and no interest in upholding the law or punishing the factory owners for violating it."

Same as it ever was, eh?

tallship Apr 7, 2024

@elmussol @baronvonj @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

Yes indeed, was I so blatant? 😎
You are correct and I was successful in conveyance.
That's a win<==>win 👍

Baron Von J Apr 3, 2024

@tallship @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

<shudder> at S Mode.

erilun06 Apr 2, 2024

@baronvonj @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

so the "OS" that is supposed to not need you to open a terminal, requires you to open the terminal just to install it, Im an arch-user and I find it easier to install arch(at least if I can use the tui installer) than it is to install a "recent" windows

I remember installing debian, and that was __really__ easy to do
Only linux system that cant be installed without network is the netinstall versions, and those usually(debian might not) tell you that you need network

Baron Von J Apr 3, 2024

well technically you don't *need* to. You *can* just finish the initial login by using a Microsoft account!

@aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

erilun06 Apr 4, 2024

@baronvonj @aud @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
Sure, but that isn't really an option for a lot of people (I still wish I could use GitHub to login to my Minecraft account(like I can for playing halo), and that's the only thing I use my MS account for )

Jernej Simončič �Apr 3, 2024

@aud @jon @baronvonj @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace It's much worse than that – without using the bypassnro workaround you will not be able to finish the OOBE wizard even if there's no working network adapter at all in your computer.

Jernej Simončič �Apr 3, 2024

@aud @jon @baronvonj @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace Oh, and even if you do the workaround, Windows 11 will nag you every few days to log in to a MS account with a similar full-screen wizard. You have to go to Settings → System → Notifications → scroll all the way down to Additional options and uncheck the suggestion checkbox there.

Corb_The_Lesser Apr 1, 2024

@baronvonj @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

I used that the other day and it worked on 11 Pro. Also labored through following a batch of advice about getting rid of telemetry, disabling unwelcome services, etc. Not sure anything done outside Settings would survive the next update. Hardly seemed worth it, actually.

Baron Von J Apr 1, 2024

@Corb_The_Lesser @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace
That is for sure true that some of these settings can get reverted in the big OS updates (like 1909 to 20h2 to 22h2).

@baronvonj @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace reconfigure? more like just skip it

@baronvonj @jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

Here's to hoping Microsoft are the next ones to be legaled by the US

Baron Von J Apr 3, 2024

They already have been once back in the 90s and the judges order to split the company was overruled. As far as Government use goes, they wouldn't be running the Home or even Pro versions that try to force you to use the regular public cloud. They'll have the Enterprise version that will happily work with on-prem services or Azure Government services.

@jon @cygnathreadbare @writeblankspace

Fabián Robledo Apr 1, 2024

@cygnathreadbare

Last week I started a brand new laptop for work and I used that trick. I do not know the exact W11 versión, but not connecting to the Internet allowed to me to create a local account.

Ironically, i only used it to download Ubuntu and make a live usb, as we mainly use GNU/Linux at work.

@jon @writeblankspace

YurkshireLad Apr 1, 2024

@writeblankspace @jon there are ways if you google them. The section titled "How to Bypass Windows 11 Microsoft Account Requirement Using Command Prompt" worked for me on the page https://www.howtogeek.com/836157/how-to-use-windows-11-with-a-local-account/

How to Set Up Windows 11 Without a Microsoft Account

Did anyone ask for compulsory Microsoft logins?

How-To Geek

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

@YurkshireLad @writeblankspace

You should not need to use hacks to avoid logging into Microsoft or accidentally using Microsoft services.

YurkshireLad Apr 1, 2024

@jon @writeblankspace I don't disagree.

@jon @YurkshireLad @writeblankspace not using Windows is a hack?

mercurial yapper (now in plasmatrap.com)Apr 1, 2024

@YurkshireLad @jon aaa, wish I'd known this sooner!

BashStKid Apr 1, 2024

@YurkshireLad @writeblankspace @jon
These do work, and aren’t very involved, but really really should not be necessary.

jerkface Apr 2, 2024

I bought a laptop recently and I was *not exactly shocked* to find I could not buy one without Windows pre-installed. It never got a chance to boot, but I guess I still paid for it?

AGTMADCAT 🇬🇧🇺🇸🇺🇦🇹🇼🇵🇸Apr 2, 2024

@writeblankspace @jon There totally is, but you have to know the boot flags to make it happen. It's a massive pain in the ass, but buried under all of the new bollocks is the same old local login system. One method is to set it up without a network connection, and open a command prompt (Shift-F10) and type OOBE\BYPASSNRO to make it proceed without a network connection. There are some other methods but this is the easiest one that works on a default install.

🇺🇦Apr 2, 2024

@writeblankspace @jon if you get the business OS ("Windows Professional") creating a local account is as easy as selecting 'Domain Join instead' because the process for doing that is creating a local account, signing in, then joining the domain.

It also includes better management for Bitlocker drive encryption and may pay more attention to some management features you can enable with Local Policy or registry edits

Jernej Simončič �Apr 2, 2024

@writeblankspace @jon There is a way, but it's convoluted:

immediately when OOBE wizard appears press Shift+F10, which opens Command Prompt

in Command Prompt window type oobe\bypassnro.cmd, the computer will restart

ensure that there is no network connection (unplug Ethernet cable, disable WiFi if you connected before)

you will now be able to create a local account

In the past it was possible to create a local account by trying to log in to a locked MS account ([email protected] with any password worked), but they don't let you continue any more in 23H2.

Another thing I suggest if your computer came with Windows 11 Pro pre-installed: grab a copy of Windows install media, create a text file named x:\sources\ei.cfg (where x: is the install media drive) with the following content:

[Channel]
retail

then do a clean install of Windows; when it asks you which edition to install, choose Windows 11 Pro N – this version doesn't have media codecs (which you can install through Optional Features), but more importantly, it doesn't have ads in Start Menu, and those don't come back even if you install the Media Feature Pack. Pro N will activate automatically if your computer came with a Pro license.

🪬🍄🌈🎮💻🚲🥓🎃💀🏴🛻♓🧿Apr 1, 2024

@jon I feel like government probably deploys Windows differently than consumers do

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

I think we should be able to trust our computers to not be placing things online, without explicit consent. Security applies to companies and individuals as well.

🪬🍄🌈🎮💻🚲🥓🎃💀🏴🛻♓🧿Apr 1, 2024

@jon some people want their things to be backed up online

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

@schizanon , sure, and if people were offered the service and not lured into it, it would be fine.

🪬🍄🌈🎮💻🚲🥓🎃💀🏴🛻♓🧿Apr 1, 2024

@jon having had to set up OneDrive for multiple relatives, I don't think it's that simple

Josh Carlson Apr 1, 2024

@schizanon @jon

Speaking as a local government worker, they don't!

YurkshireLad Apr 1, 2024

@jon does Windows Pro, or whatever they call it these days, let you install with a local account?

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

Not sure if there is a way around it. Some hack. By default you will get a Microsoft account with all the security issues that entails.

Otto Apr 1, 2024

@jon @YurkshireLad It is not only possible, it is easy. Just don't log in with a Microsoft account and do not create one during the process. Problem solved. I've used that method for years, I still use it, it works fine.

Louis Khor Apr 1, 2024

@jon What I'm increasingly annoyed by is how Windows has become "nag-ware."

Screenshot shows a OneDrive backup "important notification" that won't go away on Windows 11. And my wife pays for Office 365 for both of us.

So even after we pay for the service, they still nag us to back things up on OneDrive. Which I don't want to do. I've yet to find a way to disable this.

There's also a persistent nag on the system tray icon that won't go away for this.

The net result is that if there ever is an important notification, I'd never know. Because the notifications have become completely useless.

Methylzero Apr 1, 2024

@louiskhor @jon I bet someone who is pirating Office is free from this burden. You wouldn't download a car, am I right?

@Methylzero @louiskhor @jon they show it to everyone they can, including people who they don't want to get payments from. like me. if i bother to open that notification, i get a "Hey, this service is unavailable in your general area" and the funny dot does NOT go away

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

@louiskhor , indeed, it is unacceptable. Now in Europe that DMA forces Microsoft to allow people to uninstall OneDrive. Sadly that is not worldwide at this time and I still think the choice to use OneDrive should be opt-in and not pushed.

Brian Moakley Apr 1, 2024

@louiskhor @jon This has got to be a company wide mandate. When I had an Xbox Series X, I kept receiving marketing notifications that I could not disable.

Same happened with Gamepass on PC to the point I just let it expire. Now I just use Windows to launch Steam.

Josh Carlson Apr 1, 2024

I do drop-in tech support days at my library, and half the issues I've seen relate to OneDrive in one way or another.

Jon S. von Tetzchner Apr 1, 2024

Yes, that is scary. OneDrive is a mess.

rrb Apr 1, 2024

@jon Just a quick question: you guys actually use Windows?

I think that is the problem. When I have to use Windows, I have an XP VM that I use. Makes life much better.

tallship Apr 1, 2024

Yes, indeed - absolutely.

When in doubt, we might best be served by contemplating the following script:

`./kill_sarah_connor.sh`

#tallship #Copilot

⛵

.

Corb_The_Lesser Apr 1, 2024

@jon Making use of services not running on the local hardware opt-in would be a very good thing. Could be done in the OS install.

@jon with each new piece of nonsense from MS I’m increasingly pleased to have moved to Linux Mint. Still using OneDrive though for my sins.. nothing else comes close for value and fitting my needs :-/

Alligator Apr 1, 2024

@jon Windows: unsafe at any speed

Random Tux User Apr 1, 2024

@jon
Not refuting anything you said, but I think the government has a lot less to worry about Microsoft spying on them. There are probably secret contracts or agreements or things like that behind the scenes that severely restrict what Microsoft can do with government data.

And unlike for individual users, companies will often be very careful about circumventing these kinds of contracts for the government since the government is much more able to respond harshly. Though this is just my guess.