Luci LilacMar 29, 2024
Aral Balkan

Dear @Gargron,

A fediverse server called Threads is violating mastodon.social’s second server rule:

“2. No racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia…
Transphobic behavior such as intentional misgendering and deadnaming is strictly prohibited.”

https://glaad.org/smsi/report-meta-fails-to-moderate-extreme-anti-trans-hate-across-facebook-instagram-and-threads/

Can you please defederate from this server to protect the trans people on mastodon.social?

Thank you.

PS. It’s run by these guys: https://techcrunch.com/2024/03/26/facebook-secret-project-snooped-snapchat-user-traffic/

#mastodonSocial #fediblock #threads #meta #mastodon #transphobia

Report – Unsafe: Meta Fails to Moderate Extreme Anti-trans Hate Across Facebook, Instagram, and Threads | GLAAD

GLAAD’s Social Media Safety Program reported the following anti-trans hate content across Instagram, Facebook, and Threads; Meta deemed all of it non-violative or did not take action on it.

GLAAD | GLAAD rewrites the script for LGBTQ acceptance.
Mar 27, 2024 at 4:58pmWeb
Show threadA.A. Delafin, radicalMar 27, 2024
@aral It has been clear from the beginning that federating with Meta would result in them becoming 'too big to defederate', regardless of moderation rules. It's one (of the many) reasons why preemptive defederation with Threads was always the better choice.
Show threadDaniel S. ReichenbachMar 27, 2024
@aral @Gargron seems pretty easy, Meta will enforce their rules without considering future hope for improvements, so Mastodon should too. IMHO any debate about why to not do it is digging to deep into Metas virtual butthole.
Show threadfromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻 ✍️ 🥐 🇵🇷Mar 27, 2024

@aral @Gargron of all the pro-meta blog posts in the past six months, I have never read anything to the tune of "Threads is bound by Mastodon's terms of service like any other instance."

Hundreds of thousands of published words and none formed a sentence close to that. Not even in the form of a question. Odd.

Show threadJamesh Isn't HereMar 27, 2024
@fromjason @aral @Gargron Because there's no such centralized terms of service that binds all instances. Or did you mean Mastodon.social specifically?
Show threadfromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻 ✍️ 🥐 🇵🇷Mar 27, 2024
@jameshisnthere @aral @Gargron federation comes with terms for most of the popular servers.
Show threadJamesh Isn't HereMar 27, 2024

@fromjason @aral @Gargron Sure. every individual server has its own defederation standard. Most of the big servers seem to use a light hand compared to some when defederating entire servers and maybe do most of their moderation at the user level. At least, that's my impression.

There is a minimum standard to be included on the joinmastodon.org website, but threads won't be there regardless.

Show threadfromjason.xyz ❤️ 💻 ✍️ 🥐 🇵🇷Mar 27, 2024

@jameshisnthere @aral honestly dude, I'm not into having a pedantic convo about mastodon terms. It derails and degrades the point that Meta has carte blanche with its interpolation by those with the most influential voices in the Fediverse.

If you're willing to advocate for a company like meta to gain access, why not be clear with what is and isn't acceptable from the jump? Seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Show threadJamesh Isn't HereMar 27, 2024
@fromjason I'm sorry for coming across that way or if I misunderstood. I read your comment as asking for a blanket statement from some authority speaking for the entire fediverse, which is obviously impossible. In retrospect I realize you may have been asking for certain people to make it clearer that they won't give threads special treatment or maybe I just don't get what you're saying. But, yeah, I'll shut up now.
Show threadPromethea Mar 28, 2024

@fromjason @aral @Gargron

That would be because threads doesn't use Mastodon, and Mastodon doesn't have terms of service anyway.

It's more a matter of ethical consistency. Someone who runs an instance that federates with threads can't claim to give a darn about any of its users in vulnerable groups.

Show threadRobert Riemann 🇪🇺Mar 29, 2024

@fromjason @aral @Gargron I wonder if Mastodon is the right platform to develop an approach to #Threads. The micro posts don't give enough space. Every other post is about someone who has blocked someone.

In fighting Internet offences like copyright infringements, CSAM, etc. I understood the best approach is to tackle the source. Why not here?

I also wonder if Threads is bound by other servers' TOS. I doubt it. If so, it would apply both ways. Difficult to manage in an open federated network.

Show threadWobblyElmerMar 27, 2024

@aral @Gargron

I'm not big on censorship, but I know dog-whistle reactionary kaka when I hear it.
Pull the pin on #threads.

Show threadMichael Bishop ☕Mar 27, 2024

@aral @Gargron

I have already blocked Threads and have no interest in any connection with them.

Show threadAlexMar 27, 2024

@aral @Gargron its a tough one..
For me personally the primary reason to defederate threads is history - for decades large corpos have followed agressive assimilation principle. There are barely any exceptions and I cant come up with any, its highly likely threads will be such a case again.

On the other hand, federating with threads gives access to millions of new users that can be positively influenced, threads brings with it potential to take fedi out of fringe and into mainstream.

Show threadDanielMar 27, 2024
@aral Where does it say that they defederate all those instances tho? That's just one tool of moderation.
Show threadChris WhoMar 27, 2024
@aral @Gargron It's symbolic because I've not yet opened the instance to users yet, but I've blocked threads.net and don't know any reason for not blocking threads other than interests that, for one reason or another, align with threads or meta. #Fediblock #Threads #BlockThreads
Show threadhansupMar 27, 2024
@aral @Gargron Still haven’t seen one argument that makes sense to have bloody meta in the fediverse.
People on meta will NEVER care 1 second about the fediverse. If you want to connect with your family on meta, join meta. The whole point of the fediverse was being an alternative, not a replacement.
Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@hans @aral @Gargron ... So the all point of fediverse is to.. LOOSE against big tech company ?

So... You don't care about normal people then ? Their mental health on the internet, the isolation on social media ?

It's JUST a alternative ? You don't want to fight, so ?

GAFAM already won and you just want a little space only for you ? So brave.
Show threadhansupMar 28, 2024

@tripop @aral @Gargron the fact that there is an alternative is a WIN against big tech.

Don’t know what you mean by normal people. A lot of people came here just because they want to have a saver space.

If we let meta in than we are back to square one. Fediverse will be eaten in no time by big tech.

Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@hans @aral @Gargron You talk about threads like it just big entity tha just "Meta" and not like it's just a big app on social media platform use by a lots, and i mean a lots of different peoples. You forget about the users and their freedom, it's not a good strategy for me.
Show threadhansupMar 28, 2024

@tripop @aral @Gargron Yes, I wish everyone their own personal online space, where they feel save to connect with other people without any interference of big tech monsters. Fediverse can make that happen.

Letting meta in without any resistance is a sell out, and probably not so brave.

Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@hans @aral @Gargron And it's already here with the fediverse. Every admin can open a small communities, and do that. But here it's not about that, it's about put pressure on the one that command and have power other the biggest mastodon instances and decide for 244K users.

It's not the same thing.
Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@hans @aral @Gargron And i mean, if we see them, they see us. So maybe, we could lets the users of this biggest social media platform see that they're alternatives ? That they can create instances ? And use it like they want ?

Like imagine : it's not threads that's a menace to fediverse and mastodon and all, it's the opposite.
Show threadhansupMar 28, 2024
@tripop @aral @Gargron I admire your optimism, but the track record of meta is so bad, I really cannot trust them for 1 second.
The fact that they enter the fediverse is nothing less than an attack to destroy.
Show threadMister Moo 🐮Mar 27, 2024
@aral @Gargron Just to give the other side of this: there are probably a lot of pro-trans people who see server-level defederation of an instance as big as Threads as a draconian over-reaction in light of available user-level blocking tools. I just don't see any room in this thread for reasonable disagreement. It doesn't help that the few people I *am* seeing disagree are wearing their awfulness on their sleeves. Social media incentivizes a black-or-white viewpoint and I see tons of that here.
Show threadAral BalkanMar 28, 2024
@MisterMoo @Gargron And are all these pro-trans people who want to federate with Threads in the room with you now?
Show threadMister Moo 🐮Mar 28, 2024
@aral @Gargron I'm sure I don't understand that sentence but, in any event, I swore I would avoid unproductive social media debates and I've already baited one by expressing any skepticism whatsoever here so 🪄👻
Show threadAurora - NOW celestiallavendar@icedoatmilk@coffeeMar 28, 2024
@MisterMoo @aral @Gargron Lmaooo I've yet to see a single trans / queer person on Fedi be anything except ready to burn Threads to the ground themselves. I'd love to see some of these pro-threads pro-trans posts.
Show threadmonorail timesMar 27, 2024
@aral @Gargron then don’t follow people on threads? I’m confused.
Show threadMatthew Mar 28, 2024
@monorailtimes You do know that transphobes would dogpilled trans people even online, right?
@aral @Gargron
Show threadmonorail timesMar 28, 2024
@matty @aral @Gargron just block threads users then
Show threadMatthew Mar 28, 2024
@monorailtimes Blocking Thread user is like playing Wack-a-mole and giving Facebook does nothing to stop it, it won't do as much effect unlike blocking the instance.

@aral @Gargron
Show threadmonorail timesMar 28, 2024
@matty @aral @Gargron yeah just block the domain, that's totally possible or join a mastodon instance that respects that, but forcing everyone to adhere to your specific moderation isn't what the fediverse was founded on
Show threadMatthew Mar 28, 2024
@monorailtimes If this wasn't Facebook and instance doesn't do anything about the bigotry, they would be on FediBlock. For god sake, Mastodon.social rule is no transphobia so damn right we're allow to be annoyed. Acting like it isn't a major deal and we're "forcing" it is not only telling little you care about trans and how damn condensing you are

@aral @Gargron
Show threadmonorail timesMar 28, 2024
@matty @aral @Gargron you have options to moderate your own content, not everyone else’s, I haven't said anything offensive to you at all but you're attacking me for providing another perspective and you know nothing about me
Show threadPerpetually Ayxhausted [neos + it]Mar 28, 2024
@monorailtimes @[email protected] @aral @Gargron

If any other server allowed bigotry it would be rightfully defederated. What makes threads different?


Meta allows bigohtry on their platforms, #threads included, thus is only logic that any server that saus to stand against those things should defederate from them.

otherwise is hypocrisy. Otherwise they shouldn't call their servers "free from bigotry" if they are going to ignore their own anti-bigotry rules in order to lick the boots of tech corpos.
Show threadAral BalkanMar 28, 2024
@monorailtimes @Gargron You’re not confused, you’re privileged.
Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@aral @monorailtimes @Gargron You don't know how to use mastodon ?

You know, the things that GIVE YOU ABILITIES TO BLOCK ENTIRE SERVER YOURSELF.

WHY DO YOU WANT TO PUNISH EVERYONE JUDT BECAUSE YOU DEICIDE IT ???

You ARE alredy in power to choose. Don't become a authoritarian bitch, thks
Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@aral @Gargron

If we grow, there will always be a ton of people able to make a decent argument that something is racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic. it will be endless battles between mods over what justifies action or else face defederation. and also tons of individuals having no idea they are silenced by entire servers. I get strict rules internally but servers blocking/silencing servers or individuals must require a higher bar and be done more transparently. #fediblockmeta

Show threadAral BalkanMar 28, 2024

@wjmaggos @Gargron If the two links I provided in the original post do not meet your bar for defederation then there’s something wrong with your bar. It also tells me your instance is not a safe space for vulnerable groups. And if your instance happens to be the flagship one and you’re fine with this, it tells me you’re legitimising this behaviour on the greater network.

#fediblockmeta #fediblock #meta

Show threadmrayMar 28, 2024

@wjmaggos

This *IS* the endless battle between mods you refer to. So let's get out hands dirty, no?

It certainly sucks to have to let go such a big number of people in a network. But if those admins fuck up too hard (as they do) – you can't just give it a pass, especially if it is a big instance.

Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray @aral

if the users on #threads become routinely abusive of fedi folks (by poisoning hashtags and tagging people here with crap), we will need to consider defederation. and their size will make that much more annoying to do.

that there is horrible shit there and they are abusive to their users is not a reason to block them imo. it's a reason to federate and welcome people to move here while retaining their connections there and avoiding the bad meta data policies as much as possible.

Show threadmrayMar 28, 2024
@wjmaggos Your bar is abuse becoming routine. That may be the point of our divergence. I consider consequences earlier.
Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray

I mean routinely as in if we regularly see direct abuse from threads users. individuals you can block/silence as a server but a flood of users there doing that shit would call for blocking/silencing that server at some point.

imo we have lots of goals. I understand safety is the top one for many. I wish we weren't thought so poorly of for not agreeing . for trying to better balance it with other concerns. I don't think we will find compromises that work for everyone but should try.

Show threadmrayMar 28, 2024

@wjmaggos I think it is a sane approach to tie de-federation to how effective admins can control the activity of their instance and enforce good rules. It isn't the relative density of how big the proportion of bad actors is. By your approach we would be waiting for an IMMENSE TON OF SHIT hitting the fan before "considering" defederation.

You also don't sanction states by the amount of bad deeds of its citizens. You go about how what is deemed ok officially.

Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray

I think you are misunderstanding me.

Defederation should be based on protecting the fedi as a network. On the fedi and www, there will be crap. And stuff many hate but you don't. On your fedi server or blog, post anything legal imo. But when you intentionally intrude on others' experience, there becomes cause for action imo because it can make the entire network a shitty place to be. That should be the focus of server vs server policing.

We don't have a UN to determine what's "ok".

Show threadmrayMar 28, 2024
@wjmaggos I don't understand, indeed. You say crap existing in the internet is a thing we have to deal with, but when there is a proposal how to deal with it you say "just deal with it"? I don't follow.
Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray

does saying "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" constitute antisemitism? Or "Israel is an apartheid state"? or "American politicians continue to support Israel because they are getting paid off"?

I don't think any of that does but I completely understand others saying those statements either are directly or they endanger Jewish people. for people who think this, what I wrote above is crap. you can keep it off your server but defederating a server for it goes too far imo.

Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray

now if somebody was clearly pro Israel and Jewish and somebody else posted what I wrote in replies to them once or twice during a conversation on the issues, that's probably not harassment. doing it relentlessly, esp if the replied to says they consider in antisemitic, clearly is. or doing it at random times. I'd argue the person should silence/block them or maybe eventually their server should. but only block their server if this is happening a lot from multiple accounts there.

Show threadmrayMar 28, 2024
@wjmaggos Did you even bother to click on one of the OP links? The problems with Meta, Facebook and Zuckerbergs stuff in general can't be summarized by what brought up even by a far stretch.
Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray

I did and of course you don't see it that way. I always bring up Israel and antisemitism to lefties cause it seems to be the only issue most of us see as justifying possibly upsetting people in order to discuss freely.

were you around when people got pissed off about some liking the Harry Potter videogame or the BBC starting an instance even though they have transphobes on their shows? what's in the OP should be defederated from but you'd defend federating with harrypotter.social?

Show threadmrayMar 28, 2024

@wjmaggos You deliberately seem to deflect that the OP talks about mastodon.social, their own server rules vs. threads.net and the shortcomings of Meta.

Israel, Harry Potter or the BBC? This isn't about upsetting some people for some reasons – wich I'm fine with generally.

Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray

when I was composing my reply, I had a line that that MS policy would have to change. so you're right that I didn't address that, but I think they're (we're?) gonna have to go the other way.

Show threadwilliam.maggosMar 28, 2024

@mray @aral

I have a Facebook account to stay connected to friends and family. I barely use it but I don't see the horrible shit. same with the crap on the wider www that I never see. this is true for most people and I see federation as more of a way out than helping the shit spread.

here we've had fights over a Harry Potter game and whether the BBC should be welcomed cause they have anti trans people on their shows. many consider criticism of Israel to be antisemitic. our norms need work.

Show threadmathewMar 28, 2024

@aral @Gargron Not only anti-trans. Chaya Raichik ("Libs of TikTok") is on Threads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libs_of_TikTok

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/libs-tiktok-x-chaya-raichik-bomb-threat-twitter-of-libsoftiktok-rcna102784

Libs of TikTok - Wikipedia

Show threadDavidMar 28, 2024

@aral @Gargron

@rober see why I was against allow Meta to federate? 😔

As always they go first after trans people, then after the rest.

"If you dont act now because you weren't a trans person. Don't cry when you're attacked."

Show threadeatyourgloryMar 28, 2024
@aral Genuine question, how is defederating threads protecting trans people?
Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@eatyourglory @aral because trans people are babies, they cannot know how to defend themself, and like... use mastodon to block servers and users, so big admin guy have to think for them.

I guess.
Show threadAral BalkanMar 28, 2024

@tripop Go away.

@eatyourglory

Show threadTripopMar 28, 2024
@aral @eatyourglory Oh sorry, i leave you in your bubble. 👋
Show threadAral BalkanMar 28, 2024
@eatyourglory In the same way that defederating Gab is.