He overstated the value of his assets on a loan document. This is illegal in NY, so the people of NY were harmed.

Are you aware of underwriting? What it does is the loan company asks for all of the information it wants, and uses that information to decide if they should give you money and how much money to give you. So it doesnt matter what value they put on the property, the loan company decides what the value is.

This is illegal in NY, so the people of NY were harmed.

How is having an opinion that your property is worth more than someone else thinks a crime? And if it is, how can you possibly justify so much for a crime what you cant point to an actual person that was directly or even indirectly harmed?

Falsely stating the value of an asset is a crime in NY. It doesn’t matter if someone else is directly harmed.

There are plenty of laws that are designed to reduce the risk of harm. Apartment buildings are required to conform to fire codes. Restaurants are required to conform to health codes. Drivers are required to be sober and carry insurance.

If your apartment has no fire exits, it doesn’t matter if nobody is hurt in a fire. If your restaurant has spoiled meat in the fridge, it doesn’t matter if nobody got food poisoning. If you are pulled over drunk without insurance, it doesn’t matter if you didn’t get in an accident.

In each of those examples, you put people at risk, even if you “can’t point to an actual person that was directly of even indirectly harmed”. You broke the law, and you should be punished.

Furthermore, the punishment has to exceed whatever you might have gained from breaking the law. If you don’t have auto insurance, the penalty has to be higher than what auto insurance costs. Otherwise, you would be happy to pay a fine instead of buying auto insurance.

In New York, there are laws against inflating your asset values on loan documents. Those laws are meant to protect all New Yorkers. When Trump lied on his loan documents, he harmed all New Yorkers. He broke the law. And the penalty has to be greater than whatever money he thought he might save by lying.

Value of property is highly variable and up to opinion.

How was an average New Yorker harmed by trump claiming his property was worth more than it was? Please be very direct and specific. I can give you how trump getting that loan benefitted New Yorkers if you want…

For starters, the square footage of an apartment is not a matter of opinion, and Trump lied about the square footage.

The average New Yorker was harmed by Trump in the same way that the average New Yorker is harmed by a drunk driver who makes it home without hitting anyone.

It was trumps lawyers not trump, but there are ways to make it look higher than it is.

The average new yorker is not harmed by a drunk driver that doesnt hit anyone…

So you don’t understand why drunk drivers are punished? Or you would be punished for driving 100 mph in a school zone without hitting anyone? Or why you would go to jail if you shot a few rounds into a crowd without hurting anyone?

In that case, you simply don’t understand the point of public safety laws. Fortunately, prosecutors do understand.

They are punished to prevent them from driving drunk in the present and the future, there is not actual harm from them being drunk and making it home save.

If people are convicted by what could have been that is a very slippery slope.

Exactly, and Trump is being punished to prevent him from lying on loan documents in the present and future.

He is being punished for running for president, that should be obvious. So again, please very directly tell me how people were harmed by trump. I can tell you how they benefitted.

I already told you. He broke a law designed to keep New Yorkers safe. That means he put New Yorkers at unnecessary risk.

It doesn’t matter if any particular person was harmed, just like it doesn’t matter if a drunk driver actually harms someone or if a person who shoots into a crowd harms anyone.

It also doesn’t matter if anyone benefited from his illegal actions. If people benefit when you break the law, you get punished nevertheless.

The law is the law. When you break it, you face the consequences. Everyone knows this.

And what was the risk to New Yorkers? Who exactly was defrauded by trump?

When Trump lied on his loan documents, his NY lenders assumed unnecessary risk. Along with any NY institutions that dealt with those lenders.

It’s laughable to suggest that lying on loan documents is okay as long as you pay the loan back. Are you telling us that you routinely lie on your credit card applications to get a better rate?

Again, in underwriting they look at the properties and make a decision on their own. And what was the risk to New Yorkers? Who exactly was defrauded by trump?

Is the only thing that was wrong the square footage on an apartment?

The square footage was not the only thing that was wrong, you can read the court docs for the whole list.

The entire basis of finance is that lenders get paid more when applicants have more risk. If you have a low credit score, lenders get paid more even if you make all your payments on time. But Trump lied, so that he wouldn’t have to pay what they would have charged him if they knew the truth.

It really sounds like you are admitting to lying on credit card and loan applications in order to rip off lenders.

Firstly, you dont understand how they underwriting process works, if you are actually intersted I can explain it. Secondly, you have not been able to tell me directly who was harmed and how. In any other fine like this that I am aware of, you could directly point to what they did and who was harmed (no one was harmed). Do you see the problem when the fine is half a billion and its missing those basic details?

I don’t think you understand how the law works. If you break the law, you face the consequences. The penalty is meant to deter you from breaking the law again, it is not necessarily based on “who was directly harmed”.

There are thousands of people in jail right now who did not directly harm anyone. Do you see the problem when Trump thinks that the law should not apply to him?

Again, you literally dont know what he even did, and what he did wasnt a crime.

Can you name one other judgement in the hundreds of millions where there was no direct victim?

I didn’t say he committed a crime, I said he broke the law. And I told you what he did: he lied on loan documents.

Clearly you think lying should not be punished, but the law doesn’t see things that way. Something to consider on your next loan application.

He didnt commit a crime or break the law. The problem is that you dont know about underwriting, and you wont ask about it because it blows up your case.

Good point on JP morgan, now lets take a look at the penalty. Trumps penalty was nearly over 1/2 of his networth or so (I dont know what it really is), and JP morgan was 1/2500th of their market cap. You see the difference?

Underwriting has nothing to with the fact that it’s illegal to lie on a loan document.

You are trying to make this about “direct harm”, which means you don’t understand how the law works. Just as there are “victimless crimes”, one can violate the law without directly harming someone. I gave you many examples, Trump is just one of them.

Finally, penalties partly depend on your pattern of conduct. If a judge thinks you are likely to break the same law again, the penalty will be greater in order to deter you. JPMorgan was wise enough to admit wrongdoing and promise never to do it again. Trump, at sentencing, still thought everything he did was 100% cool and legal. Trump brought that huge fine upon himself.

On each page it said that it was up to the lender to verify the information, you can claim its lying, but you would need to be very specific. I just mention direct harm because that is important to how much someone is penalized. And obviously the point of trumps penalty was not to stop him from breaking the law in the future… he is gonna die in the near future and is focused on politics.

Literally everything you have to say falls apart under basic scrutiny. You are just a partisan person that doesnt want to admit.

He specifically lied when he claimed an 11K square foot apartment had an area of 30K square feet.

You cannot escape responsibility for obeying the law by acknowledging that you might not be obeying the law. Do you seriously think that you can fill out a false tax return and get away with it if you write “This might not be my actual income, it’s up to the IRS to verify”. Judge Engoron basically laughed that argument out of court.

Trump will almost certainly apply for more loans before he dies. After this judgment, hopefully he will fill out those applications truthfully.

Thank you for finally getting specific. The apartment probably included unfinished garage space, but why do you think that would change the valuation much? Why didnt the loan company verify the information which is literally part of their due diligence?

Your whole case behind giving a fine of 400 million or so is based on a difference of about a million in appraised value change, which apparently the bank didnt even care about.

Are you suggesting that lying on a document is legal if others can figure out the truth? That’s not how the law works, at all.

Try reporting an income of $0 on your taxes this year. An obvious lie, and the IRS probably already knows your income. Nevertheless, you will face consequences.

If you claim a thing that is defensible and say that its up to the other person to verify it, then its just part of how things work. The real question is why do you care what agreement two parties come to and are happy about the outcome?

The IRS is different than a bank, and income is different than appraised value.

Claiming an 11K sqft apartment as 30K sqft is not defensible.

And no, that’s not “just how things work”. You imagine that we live in some libertarian dystopia, but we don’t. There are laws that prohibit lying in many circumstances, and you can’t disclaim your responsibility to tell the truth.

If you sell bottles labeled “Aspirin” that contain no aspirin, you will face severe consequences. Even if nobody buys your bottles and nobody is harmed. Even if you write “User is responsible for verifying whether this bottle contains aspirin”.

Because laws specifically outlaw lying on medication bottles, just as laws specifically outlaw lying on loan documents.

The real question is why do you care what agreement two parties come to and are happy about the outcome?

I care about rule of law, which means that people face the consequences for breaking laws. It makes no difference whether people are happy.

When someone buys meth from a dealer, those two parties are also happy about the outcome of the agreement. I don’t care.

You dont care about actual rule of law, you care about partisan rule of law. You dont like trump, so you are happy he is being attacked, but dont understand how it can backfire. You are in the “fucking around” stage, and if you guys get what you want we will go to the “finding out” part.

Nonsense. After Rod Blagojevich was caught trying to sell a Senate seat, I was glad to see him go to jail. And he is a Democrat.

I suppose you wonder why he was even arrested, after all when politicians are paid off both parties are happy with the outcome.

And for the last time, I am not afraid of Trump’s threats.

Oh wow, you are happy a democrat went to prison… I am also not afraid of trumps threats, I am afraid what happens if trump loses and the maga people get mad because the election was actually blatently tampered with this time.

I am happy when crooked politicians go to prison, regardless of their party. And Trump is as crooked as any.

I am not afraid of maga people who are angry that the crook they worship was found guilty.

I am not afraid of maga people who are angry that the crook they worship was found guilty.

Uh, you should be, it could be the end of the country.

Do you think the jan 6th rioters should be getting years in prison?

Angry maga people aren’t going to be the end of this country, that’s just fear mongering.

Yes, Jan 6 rioters should face the consequences of breaking the law. Depending on the charges and pleas of each individual, that may or may not include prison.

I dont think you understand what could happen, what happens if tens of millions of people say the federal government is no longer legitamate, and they refuse to follow its rules and laws?

About jan 6th people, did they deserve years in prison for going into a building and not doing any violent acts?

I’m still not afraid of maga people.

The Jan 6 deserve prison if that’s the federal sentencing guidelines for their crimes. Not everyone in prison is there for violent crime.

I feel like you are not aware of how long of sentences people are getting for tresspassing. For example the shaman I think got 42 months for entering a building and acting like an idiot.

He pled guilty to obstruction of a federal proceeding, under 18 USC 1512.

Max sentence is 20 years. So 41 months seems about right.

He pled guilty because he was going to get stream rolled. So you think its fair to get 41 months in prison for trespassing?