I agree, that amendment was directly talking about confederates who had done a known and agreed on insurrection.

It was also meant to apply to any future insurrections, like the one on Jan 6.

Jan 6th wasnt and insurrection, and trump would need to be convicted of an insurrection not just declared guilty by someone.

Nobody needed to be convicted in 1868, therefore Trump doesn’t need to be convicted today.

Yeah because it was literally a civil war…

The 14th Amendment applies to insurrections, not just wars. Any attempt to stop the function of government by force is an insurrection, including the Whiskey Rebellion, the Civil War, and Jan 6.

Sounds good if it is a universally understood insurrection.

Insurrection has a legal definition, and that’s the definition that counts.

Judges are the ones responsible for deciding whether a legal definition applies, and so far all those involved said it does.

Do you see the issue with one judge or a couple judges deciding who get to run for office at their whim?

Judges already do a lot more than that, they have the power to decide who lives and dies.

Thats fair, but Trump running for office could be a lot bigger than that if it leads to domestic conflict.

Judges generally don’t care if their decisions lead to domestic conflict. Nor should they, that’s how rule of law can succumb to mob rule.

I understand that, but when judges do things like remove people from ballots over accusation, that is obviously a political decision.

When they order congressional districts that obey the Voting Rights Act, that is also political. It has resulted in elected representatives losing their seats multiple times

Judges enforce the law, and politics are not above the law

The law is not what they say, its biased and is not real justice many times. Do you recognize the five or so prosecutions against trump are political, and could result in severe domestic violence?

I think Trump broke the law and needs to face the consequences. I am not afraid of his threats of violence.

Okay, lets look at the real estate “crime” because i know real estate well. Who did he defraud and how?

He lied on his loan applications, which is illegal.

How did he lie on his application and who was harmed by this?

He overstated the value of his assets on a loan document. This is illegal in NY, so the people of NY were harmed.

Are you aware of underwriting? What it does is the loan company asks for all of the information it wants, and uses that information to decide if they should give you money and how much money to give you. So it doesnt matter what value they put on the property, the loan company decides what the value is.

This is illegal in NY, so the people of NY were harmed.

How is having an opinion that your property is worth more than someone else thinks a crime? And if it is, how can you possibly justify so much for a crime what you cant point to an actual person that was directly or even indirectly harmed?

Falsely stating the value of an asset is a crime in NY. It doesn’t matter if someone else is directly harmed.

There are plenty of laws that are designed to reduce the risk of harm. Apartment buildings are required to conform to fire codes. Restaurants are required to conform to health codes. Drivers are required to be sober and carry insurance.

If your apartment has no fire exits, it doesn’t matter if nobody is hurt in a fire. If your restaurant has spoiled meat in the fridge, it doesn’t matter if nobody got food poisoning. If you are pulled over drunk without insurance, it doesn’t matter if you didn’t get in an accident.

In each of those examples, you put people at risk, even if you “can’t point to an actual person that was directly of even indirectly harmed”. You broke the law, and you should be punished.

Furthermore, the punishment has to exceed whatever you might have gained from breaking the law. If you don’t have auto insurance, the penalty has to be higher than what auto insurance costs. Otherwise, you would be happy to pay a fine instead of buying auto insurance.

In New York, there are laws against inflating your asset values on loan documents. Those laws are meant to protect all New Yorkers. When Trump lied on his loan documents, he harmed all New Yorkers. He broke the law. And the penalty has to be greater than whatever money he thought he might save by lying.

Value of property is highly variable and up to opinion.

How was an average New Yorker harmed by trump claiming his property was worth more than it was? Please be very direct and specific. I can give you how trump getting that loan benefitted New Yorkers if you want…

For starters, the square footage of an apartment is not a matter of opinion, and Trump lied about the square footage.

The average New Yorker was harmed by Trump in the same way that the average New Yorker is harmed by a drunk driver who makes it home without hitting anyone.

It was trumps lawyers not trump, but there are ways to make it look higher than it is.

The average new yorker is not harmed by a drunk driver that doesnt hit anyone…

So you don’t understand why drunk drivers are punished? Or you would be punished for driving 100 mph in a school zone without hitting anyone? Or why you would go to jail if you shot a few rounds into a crowd without hurting anyone?

In that case, you simply don’t understand the point of public safety laws. Fortunately, prosecutors do understand.

They are punished to prevent them from driving drunk in the present and the future, there is not actual harm from them being drunk and making it home save.

If people are convicted by what could have been that is a very slippery slope.

Exactly, and Trump is being punished to prevent him from lying on loan documents in the present and future.

He is being punished for running for president, that should be obvious. So again, please very directly tell me how people were harmed by trump. I can tell you how they benefitted.

I already told you. He broke a law designed to keep New Yorkers safe. That means he put New Yorkers at unnecessary risk.

It doesn’t matter if any particular person was harmed, just like it doesn’t matter if a drunk driver actually harms someone or if a person who shoots into a crowd harms anyone.

It also doesn’t matter if anyone benefited from his illegal actions. If people benefit when you break the law, you get punished nevertheless.

The law is the law. When you break it, you face the consequences. Everyone knows this.

And what was the risk to New Yorkers? Who exactly was defrauded by trump?

When Trump lied on his loan documents, his NY lenders assumed unnecessary risk. Along with any NY institutions that dealt with those lenders.

It’s laughable to suggest that lying on loan documents is okay as long as you pay the loan back. Are you telling us that you routinely lie on your credit card applications to get a better rate?

Again, in underwriting they look at the properties and make a decision on their own. And what was the risk to New Yorkers? Who exactly was defrauded by trump?

Is the only thing that was wrong the square footage on an apartment?

The square footage was not the only thing that was wrong, you can read the court docs for the whole list.

The entire basis of finance is that lenders get paid more when applicants have more risk. If you have a low credit score, lenders get paid more even if you make all your payments on time. But Trump lied, so that he wouldn’t have to pay what they would have charged him if they knew the truth.

It really sounds like you are admitting to lying on credit card and loan applications in order to rip off lenders.

Firstly, you dont understand how they underwriting process works, if you are actually intersted I can explain it. Secondly, you have not been able to tell me directly who was harmed and how. In any other fine like this that I am aware of, you could directly point to what they did and who was harmed (no one was harmed). Do you see the problem when the fine is half a billion and its missing those basic details?

I don’t think you understand how the law works. If you break the law, you face the consequences. The penalty is meant to deter you from breaking the law again, it is not necessarily based on “who was directly harmed”.

There are thousands of people in jail right now who did not directly harm anyone. Do you see the problem when Trump thinks that the law should not apply to him?

Again, you literally dont know what he even did, and what he did wasnt a crime.

Can you name one other judgement in the hundreds of millions where there was no direct victim?

I didn’t say he committed a crime, I said he broke the law. And I told you what he did: he lied on loan documents.

Clearly you think lying should not be punished, but the law doesn’t see things that way. Something to consider on your next loan application.

He didnt commit a crime or break the law. The problem is that you dont know about underwriting, and you wont ask about it because it blows up your case.

Good point on JP morgan, now lets take a look at the penalty. Trumps penalty was nearly over 1/2 of his networth or so (I dont know what it really is), and JP morgan was 1/2500th of their market cap. You see the difference?

Underwriting has nothing to with the fact that it’s illegal to lie on a loan document.

You are trying to make this about “direct harm”, which means you don’t understand how the law works. Just as there are “victimless crimes”, one can violate the law without directly harming someone. I gave you many examples, Trump is just one of them.

Finally, penalties partly depend on your pattern of conduct. If a judge thinks you are likely to break the same law again, the penalty will be greater in order to deter you. JPMorgan was wise enough to admit wrongdoing and promise never to do it again. Trump, at sentencing, still thought everything he did was 100% cool and legal. Trump brought that huge fine upon himself.