seanja
David HoInstead of fixing the gun problem, we have active shooter drills.
Instead of fixing infrastructure and car bloat, we have this 👇.
Juan Carlos Muñoz@davidho It's amazing how pretty much all of these can be easily reframed for drivers: Don’t be a distracted driver. Wait until pedestrians have crossed. Etc.
Also, I wanna know why "distracted person" and "jaywalking person" decided to skip arm day at the gym :D
John Mark Ockerbloom@astro_jcm @davidho PennDOT, which made the poster shown at the top of the thread, does have a brochure that advises drivers as well as pedestrians what do to avoid collisions, including slowing down, watching for pedestrians at intersections and other places, and yielding: https://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/pubsforms/Publications/PUB%20692.pdf I don't know if they've done one for drivers in the style of the pedestrian-aimed poster, though.
nota@astro_jcm @davidho I think that'd be making the same mistake in the opposite direction, blaming fallible drivers for bad infrastructure priorities.
Here's my try:
1. Ensure low car speeds in busy areas by design. Minimize risks from collisions
2. Ensure good sight lines (extend curbs, tighten corners, stagger crossings)
3+4. Ensure safe and convenient crossings are available
5. Add protected center islands
6. Get rid of the catastrophically lethal right turn on red
7. build trains
Supportive Tree-based lifeform
jerkfaceUnfortunately, no amount of diligence and good practices can keep drivers from endangering and killing other people on the roads. Vulnerable users of transportation infrastructure will always be "thrown under the bus" by having their needs treated as secondary by design and need to have information about how to improve their chance of surviving basic trips around town.
Anne Ominous@davidho this eye contact thing is REAL DUMB. because how mnay times have dirvers looked me dead in the fucking eye and then pulled their two ton vehicle directly into my path.
GiacomoSansoni@rustoleumlove @davidho In contexts like that, is it a crime to carry a shovel for personal protection against cars?
@GiacomoSansoni @davidho i have my massive kryptonite bike lock and i'm not afraid to use it! 😂
2xfo@rustoleumlove @davidho
I've always had good luck with that but I'm a tall white guy and I understand that results can vary
I've always had good luck with that but I'm a tall white guy and I understand that results can vary
Peter Brown@rustoleumlove @davidho SMIDSY = sorry mate I didn’t see you.
There is convincing scientific evidence that the brain actually filters out two-wheeled vehicles from the image received from the eye. Our mollusc brain doesn’t see anything with two wheels as being a potential predator, so it’s removed from the important edited message sent to the brain.
Here motorcyclists are trained to assume that every other driver is trying to kill them. Which seems to be the only possible response.
There is convincing scientific evidence that the brain actually filters out two-wheeled vehicles from the image received from the eye. Our mollusc brain doesn’t see anything with two wheels as being a potential predator, so it’s removed from the important edited message sent to the brain.
Here motorcyclists are trained to assume that every other driver is trying to kill them. Which seems to be the only possible response.
@peterbrown @davidho makes snese about the training.
having two eyes myself, i'm not sure how much i but into that filtration claim, because i see bicyclists when i am in a car.
anyway, defensive biking is a good strategy. i never assume drivers see me, are paying attention, or will stop when they are supposed to
Ray Jepson@davidho it takes two to have a accident.
eyrea 🇨🇦@mister914 @davidho Or only one person looking left when they're turning right.
SamuelⒶ🇵🇸@mister914 @davidho Victim blaming much?
@davidho now that think of it, you all are right. It's always the other person's fault.
Tobias Denkinger@mister914 @davidho One who causes it and one victim.
AskPippa🇨🇦@davidho You can never totally get rid of bad drivers, or things that can cause even a good driver to be momentarily distracted (like a screaming kid throwing things in the back seat). And there's no way you can have drivers see invisible people dressed in black jay-walking half a block away from the light (or even at a crossing). At night drivers can have a hard time seeing what's in front or off to the side because of glare from overly bright modern headlines from oncoming cars. Pedestrians do need to be careful, and this chart is all good advise.
Same with bicycles (at night there should be lights on the front and back).
Same with bicycles (at night there should be lights on the front and back).
Wilfried Klaebe
Helen Graham@Helengraham I know, and @bmdv thinks "this is fine"... no need to enforce speed limits, raise fines, revoke licenses on speedsters...
@wonka @bmdv @AskPippa @davidho people ought to loose their licence for going over the national limit anywhere at all and 10 mph over the limit anywhere with lower limits because while I do get its easy to creep a few miles over the limit at points where the speed limit changes ,going 10mph over is a deliberate choice .I think the A9 needs average speed cameras too because its become common to do the route as a race which is what causes a lot of the 100mph plus speedsters
@Helengraham Problem is, we have no national limit in Germany, as the only state that is not Afghanistan...
chris@AskPippa @davidho I agree about clothing we are rural and I always go out in a visi vest after dusk or on dull days because its not worth the risk of a driver not seeing me ,ditto when I used to cycle because on unlit roads its is very hard to see someone in normal clothes .I usually have a little wind up torch clipped to me too ,.Drivers should go more slowly but they dont ,people are killed here every tourist season on what are normally quiet roads
Duncan Blues@davidho
Google "The forgotten history of how automakers invented the crime of jaywalking"
Google "The forgotten history of how automakers invented the crime of jaywalking"
Mark Mason@duncan_blues @davidho does Jaywalking exist in any country but the USA?
@markmason @davidho
There are comparable regulations in other countries AFAIK.
In Germany there are some roads where pedestrian crossing is prohibited but it's not that widespread (with the exception of Autobahn and certain motorways where pedestrian crossing is generally prohibited - and it would border on suicide anyway).
There are comparable regulations in other countries AFAIK.
In Germany there are some roads where pedestrian crossing is prohibited but it's not that widespread (with the exception of Autobahn and certain motorways where pedestrian crossing is generally prohibited - and it would border on suicide anyway).
Kaelef 
@davidho I see so many ultra-dark tinted windows these days that make eye contact impossible
Court Cantrell does not comply@wonka @kaelef @davidho Years ago, a friend of mine kicked the shit out of the back of someone's car when they turned a corner against a no-turn red light and almost flattened his kid in a crosswalk. There was a large group of us, so the driver was too chicken to stop.
The best part is that the three oldest of our collective children *remember* that: (1) being defended and (2) seeing one of their grown-ups "break the law" for all the right reasons.
Jay@davidho If I’m crossing a street and a car slows to a stop in a timely manner I do the little jog to cross faster.
If they only see me just before they should stop I watch them in the opposite lane and then, once they’ve stopped, walk slowly past them, maintaining eye contact.
It’s fun to see those pursed lips and/or chagrined faces.
Pettiness is just what we call someone using those rights that mildly inconvenience us.
Josh Kingsley 🍋@WhiteCatTamer @davidho I totally do this too. I especially try to cut off cars who think they can accelerate to get by me first. If we die today it will be with honor ✊
artisanroxthis is from Pennsylvania (PennDOT.gov) and honestly here with communities and nearby towns spread so far apart we have no choice but to drive if we don't want to live like raccoons and bears.
Absolving pedestrians of *all* awareness responsibility is a horribly bad move that's going to result in more deaths in areas where people *have to* drive.
Public trans will not solve this, they have to drive, too!
Nelson@artisanrox We know what it takes to prevent traffic deaths, and much like the COVID pandemic, the answer is not "individual responsibility" and victim blaming. It takes effort on a societal level. Fortunately, even in car-addicted America, we have successful examples to point to:
https://www.curbed.com/2022/06/hoboken-traffic-deaths-none-vision-zero-streets.html
Placing the blame on pedestrians means accepting the deaths of pets, children, and wildlife that are not capable of that sort of responsibility.
It's a case by case basis tho. Of course I'm not blanket blaming peds, just like you can't blanket blame auto users. I can't be blamed as a driver for actions that encourage peopke to just...not pay attention.
We just had a death here of someone walking right out right between two cars, never looked, never even thought about it. The driver CANNOT possibly be to blame. Vehicles aren't new or unexpected on major travel routes.
Peds HAVE to retain some responsibility.
1/2
@artisanrox Road design and other societal decisions are the main issue. Think systems. Why can we have speed limiters in electric bikes and scooters, but not cars? Why are trucks with terrible visibility street legal? While drivers in control of a two-ton killing machine have more responsibility than people they kill, ultimately any actual reduction in deaths means redesigning transportation and the built environment.
Just like defeating COVID requires more than individual masking decisions.
This is addressed in 2/2. I don't disagree, but when you have communities that just don't care and also people encouraging others to NOT pay attention at all as a ped we WILL have these accidents.
Same with COVID.
Work toward zero road deaths but PLEASE, please, stop discouraging people from doing the utter kindergarten basics, like paying attention while crossing a road.
@artisanrox I'm saying there will always be people who are not capable of the kindergarten basics, at least not consistently, and they still deserve to live.
Just like babies can't wear N95 masks, and anything that makes society unsafe for them also means parents are trapped as well.
And I don't disagree.
But drivers in communities that do not care enough to spend the money to protect peds shouldn't be faulted if someone just...walks in front of them.
Without social investment of safe sidewalks, I cannot accept responsibility if you cannot pay basic attention to your surroundings and I am driving normally and responsibly.
My job requires me to go through 6 different areas to get to my office.
Also, you have to have a community that cares enough to put money into anything else except high powered weapons for LEOs, and we *do not have that* here. That's a community attitude isdye and again, there WILL be people that will get into accidents because the community doesn't care enough.
@artisanrox Yes, when you're in a hostile community, it makes sense to take self-defense measures. If the community is hostile to public health, that means taking extra individual sanitary self-defense measures. If the community is hostile to pedestrians, sure, wear hi-vis clothing, whatever you think might increase your odds of survival.
But so long as the community is hostile, they'll kill people, and we should focus on making the community less hostile. Think of the kids/pets/turtles.
I totally agree!!!!! I do not disagree with you.
But I go through at least SIX socially hostile communities.
I don't want to run over anyone because they literally don't gaf enough to not pay attention.
I'm already dodging too many people that think COVID is fake news and vaccines give you brainworms.
@artisanrox Well if we're going to discuss individual responsibility, then I have to say this is on you. I solved this problem by refusing to use cars at all (except in life-threatening emergencies). You can't run people over if you don't drive.
Does this show my privilege? Yes. Not everyone can survive without a car. But it's also the case that not everyone can successfully look both ways before crossing the street. Recognize your privilege if you are capable of doing so.
Please do not let this devolve into chiding me for assumed driving with irresponsibly. I have THOUSANDS of miles of responsible driving behind me *and* ahead of me.
I MUST drive 20+ miles to have a roof over my head. My closest store is a mile away. My closest school is, too. My closest large shopping center is an hour+.
I am privileged to drive (and afford a car!). But, if someone needs a handler to help them in the most basic skills that is NOT my personal/legal responsibility.
@artisanrox I'm not saying you are driving irresponsibly. I am saying that if normal, "responsible" driving kills people, then normal "responsible" driving is ethically questionable.
If you gave every teacher at your school a loaded gun, it doesn't matter how responsible those teachers are, eventually a gun will go off and kill someone at your school. If a teacher accepts a gun into their classroom, knowing this, they are responsible for the predictable outcome.
This isn't equivalent to guns, though. A car doesn't exist sloely to kill people, and there are many more public tools available for them than guns(ugh WHY tho).
Everyone NEEDS to get somewhere or they wouldn't be travelling. We can certainly work toward 0 ped deaths. Until then, the unfortunate reality is that if a driver is doing everything possible w/ responsibility, the one acting outside those social/legal norms is going to be responsible for not using them.
@artisanrox If you were forced to work a job in person without a mask, and some idiot customer walks into your workplace without a mask, and then you give them COVID and they die, it doesn't matter that your respiratory system does many other valuable things aside from spreading COVID. It doesn't matter if the killing mechanism has other purposes, it's still a predictable killing mechanism.
It also doesn't matter that people NEED to work in our society. You're still responsible for the result.
@artisanrox I'm not saying "simply take a job without ethical compromises!" That's basically impossible. I'm not saying "live without harming anything or anyone!" Also basically impossible. But you're still responsible for the harm you cause, as long as we're discussing individual responsibility.
With great power comes great responsibility. Cars and their drivers have a lot of power to kill. Don't like it? Either give up the power, or the idea of individual responsibility as useful here.
I think my main concern is not what the no/fewer cars movement is, o r what it's trying to accomplish.
But flat out encouraging people to not perform basic behaviors that will protect them in a *normal* street environment is a TERRIBLE look to the movement, and post histories with "You litetally don't have to look when xing roads" is absolutely going to get laughed off and legally decimated when something awful DOES happen.
Winter TrabexI used to live in Pennsylvania. It's one of those spread-out car-happy states that doesn't do much for pedestrians outside of cities.
IvanTheBlue@davidho
What does "fixing the gun problem" mean to you? Please be specific.
I hear people use this phrase all the time. What does it mean?
🇸🇭🇮
@davidho "Unplug - Don't be a distracted walker." oh yeah let me and my neurospicy brain just try and function in the gd menagerie of noise that's ever-present in a city environment 😅
SquidAceBoi
Fahri Reza 🍉Those are things kids definitely won't do, we are just going to let them learn by making fatal mistakes @davidho
nicksname he/him@davidho
Meanwhile drivers with VR-googles..
Meanwhile drivers with VR-googles..
Manpacket@davidho Most of those tips still apply in places with great infrastructure and no car dependency. There are still roads with traffic in Singapore, you still need to be careful crossing them.
Piper has moved@davidho this is infuriating on many levels. Almost all the near misses I’ve had have been in crosswalks while I had right-of-way. Where’s the pamphlet asking drivers to actually pay attention and know traffic laws? The point isn’t to protect us, it’s to make it our fault if we die. Also, this disproportionately affects people with disabilities who cannot drive but also can’t follow all of the advice given there. It’s not our fault.