David HoInstead of fixing the gun problem, we have active shooter drills.
Instead of fixing infrastructure and car bloat, we have this 👇.
artisanroxthis is from Pennsylvania (PennDOT.gov) and honestly here with communities and nearby towns spread so far apart we have no choice but to drive if we don't want to live like raccoons and bears.
Absolving pedestrians of *all* awareness responsibility is a horribly bad move that's going to result in more deaths in areas where people *have to* drive.
Public trans will not solve this, they have to drive, too!
Nelson@artisanrox We know what it takes to prevent traffic deaths, and much like the COVID pandemic, the answer is not "individual responsibility" and victim blaming. It takes effort on a societal level. Fortunately, even in car-addicted America, we have successful examples to point to:
https://www.curbed.com/2022/06/hoboken-traffic-deaths-none-vision-zero-streets.html
Placing the blame on pedestrians means accepting the deaths of pets, children, and wildlife that are not capable of that sort of responsibility.
It's a case by case basis tho. Of course I'm not blanket blaming peds, just like you can't blanket blame auto users. I can't be blamed as a driver for actions that encourage peopke to just...not pay attention.
We just had a death here of someone walking right out right between two cars, never looked, never even thought about it. The driver CANNOT possibly be to blame. Vehicles aren't new or unexpected on major travel routes.
Peds HAVE to retain some responsibility.
1/2
@artisanrox Road design and other societal decisions are the main issue. Think systems. Why can we have speed limiters in electric bikes and scooters, but not cars? Why are trucks with terrible visibility street legal? While drivers in control of a two-ton killing machine have more responsibility than people they kill, ultimately any actual reduction in deaths means redesigning transportation and the built environment.
Just like defeating COVID requires more than individual masking decisions.
This is addressed in 2/2. I don't disagree, but when you have communities that just don't care and also people encouraging others to NOT pay attention at all as a ped we WILL have these accidents.
Same with COVID.
Work toward zero road deaths but PLEASE, please, stop discouraging people from doing the utter kindergarten basics, like paying attention while crossing a road.
@artisanrox I'm saying there will always be people who are not capable of the kindergarten basics, at least not consistently, and they still deserve to live.
Just like babies can't wear N95 masks, and anything that makes society unsafe for them also means parents are trapped as well.
And I don't disagree.
But drivers in communities that do not care enough to spend the money to protect peds shouldn't be faulted if someone just...walks in front of them.
Without social investment of safe sidewalks, I cannot accept responsibility if you cannot pay basic attention to your surroundings and I am driving normally and responsibly.
My job requires me to go through 6 different areas to get to my office.
Also, you have to have a community that cares enough to put money into anything else except high powered weapons for LEOs, and we *do not have that* here. That's a community attitude isdye and again, there WILL be people that will get into accidents because the community doesn't care enough.
@artisanrox Yes, when you're in a hostile community, it makes sense to take self-defense measures. If the community is hostile to public health, that means taking extra individual sanitary self-defense measures. If the community is hostile to pedestrians, sure, wear hi-vis clothing, whatever you think might increase your odds of survival.
But so long as the community is hostile, they'll kill people, and we should focus on making the community less hostile. Think of the kids/pets/turtles.
I totally agree!!!!! I do not disagree with you.
But I go through at least SIX socially hostile communities.
I don't want to run over anyone because they literally don't gaf enough to not pay attention.
I'm already dodging too many people that think COVID is fake news and vaccines give you brainworms.
@artisanrox Well if we're going to discuss individual responsibility, then I have to say this is on you. I solved this problem by refusing to use cars at all (except in life-threatening emergencies). You can't run people over if you don't drive.
Does this show my privilege? Yes. Not everyone can survive without a car. But it's also the case that not everyone can successfully look both ways before crossing the street. Recognize your privilege if you are capable of doing so.
Please do not let this devolve into chiding me for assumed driving with irresponsibly. I have THOUSANDS of miles of responsible driving behind me *and* ahead of me.
I MUST drive 20+ miles to have a roof over my head. My closest store is a mile away. My closest school is, too. My closest large shopping center is an hour+.
I am privileged to drive (and afford a car!). But, if someone needs a handler to help them in the most basic skills that is NOT my personal/legal responsibility.
@artisanrox I'm not saying you are driving irresponsibly. I am saying that if normal, "responsible" driving kills people, then normal "responsible" driving is ethically questionable.
If you gave every teacher at your school a loaded gun, it doesn't matter how responsible those teachers are, eventually a gun will go off and kill someone at your school. If a teacher accepts a gun into their classroom, knowing this, they are responsible for the predictable outcome.
This isn't equivalent to guns, though. A car doesn't exist sloely to kill people, and there are many more public tools available for them than guns(ugh WHY tho).
Everyone NEEDS to get somewhere or they wouldn't be travelling. We can certainly work toward 0 ped deaths. Until then, the unfortunate reality is that if a driver is doing everything possible w/ responsibility, the one acting outside those social/legal norms is going to be responsible for not using them.
@artisanrox If you were forced to work a job in person without a mask, and some idiot customer walks into your workplace without a mask, and then you give them COVID and they die, it doesn't matter that your respiratory system does many other valuable things aside from spreading COVID. It doesn't matter if the killing mechanism has other purposes, it's still a predictable killing mechanism.
It also doesn't matter that people NEED to work in our society. You're still responsible for the result.
@artisanrox I'm not saying "simply take a job without ethical compromises!" That's basically impossible. I'm not saying "live without harming anything or anyone!" Also basically impossible. But you're still responsible for the harm you cause, as long as we're discussing individual responsibility.
With great power comes great responsibility. Cars and their drivers have a lot of power to kill. Don't like it? Either give up the power, or the idea of individual responsibility as useful here.
I think my main concern is not what the no/fewer cars movement is, o r what it's trying to accomplish.
But flat out encouraging people to not perform basic behaviors that will protect them in a *normal* street environment is a TERRIBLE look to the movement, and post histories with "You litetally don't have to look when xing roads" is absolutely going to get laughed off and legally decimated when something awful DOES happen.