Jai || जयJan 19, 2024
sidereal
Got tired of having this conversation over and over again so I just spent way too long making this:
Jan 18, 2024 at 9:13pmWeb
Show threadsiderealJan 18, 2024

In case anyone is wondering: yes, this is how train robberies operated in the Old West. Slip the switch after the locomotive passes by, passenger cars are stuck there. They could rob everyone and get away before the locomotive could even stop and reverse back to the passenger cars.

And in case you were also wondering: yes, this tactic is still used by people stealing UPS packages from trains in various American cities today.

Show threadsiderealJan 18, 2024

This actually comes from railroad workers talking in comments on a fb group. I just made the meme for them.

They were like "those trolley memes are stupid, we have to do this in our railyard like once a week when some intermodal runs loose."

Show threadChris RealJan 18, 2024

@sidereal

It's a really dramatic demonstration of the fallacy of the zero-sum game.

I wish David Graeber was still alive to read it. He loved real-life analogies like this.

Show threadmymJan 19, 2024
@sidereal why do they have so many people tied to the tracks in the railyards!
Show threadhaifischJan 19, 2024
@sidereal wtf what railway is this, first time I’ve heard of anyone doing this 💀 “kicking cars” is pretty metal but forcing them fucking derail because cars “run loose” is actual insanity. brothers this is why we have switcher locomotives. this shouldn’t even happen when a line is sitting without a locomotive. not unless they’ve let the car air reservoirs bleed out, which does happen after some time - and is why they’re supposed to set handbrakes on some of the cars.
Show threadOpenDNA⚙️Jan 19, 2024
@haifisch @sidereal I'm guessing "intermodal" contains a lot of baggage. In an industry notorious for poor maintenance and under-investment, things with wheels suffer from the Tragedy of the Commons.
Show threadsabikJan 19, 2024
@opendna @haifisch @sidereal
"Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made."
--John Godfrey Saxe(?)
Show threadhaifischJan 19, 2024
@opendna @sidereal yea pretty much lots of cargo moving around, intermodal yards are usually where boxes get loaded onto cars, eventually get pulled to a shunting yard to get organized by destination in a long train. never heard great things about management from any line tbh, once described as the “Eye of Sauron”. Railroaders do have a lot of rules and the saying “every rule is written in blood.” most of the time the rule helps avoid fatal injuries while on the job.
Show threadPaulDavisTheFirstJan 19, 2024
@opendna @haifisch @sidereal this is your public service announcement that there is no, and never has been any, Tragedy of the Commons. Even Garrett Hardin walked back the concept. Commons were always managed. What there has been and continues to be is greed and selfishness that attempts to abuse the existing regulatory and mgmt structures.
Show threadOpenDNA⚙️Jan 22, 2024

@PaulDavisTheFirst @haifisch @sidereal You're not wrong, historically.

...but the idea creates the behavior. MBAs are not like normal people. They act as if Econ models and parables are morally-imperative laws of nature.

Show threadNartagnan ⏚Jan 20, 2024

@sidereal

In France, their are securities forbidding to slip the switch when the tramway is not entirely gone.

Sorry for these railroad workers to have to work with an old infrastructure.

Show threadMighty OrbotJan 18, 2024

“this tactic is still used by people stealing UPS packages from trains in various American cities today.”

@sidereal [citation needed]

Show threadRicardusJan 19, 2024
@mighty_orbot @sidereal Yes. Citation needed.
Show threadJeff GriggJun 28, 2024

@Ricardus @mighty_orbot @sidereal

The videos I've seen say that the thieves cut open the containers and make off with the contents at normal train stops.

Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PsAGvqrQaI&ab_channel=CurrentsNews

California Thieves Steal Packages From Train Cargo Containers

YouTube
Show threadJeff GriggJun 28, 2024

@Ricardus @mighty_orbot @sidereal

Here's a longer video, showing derailed cars.

Cause of the derailment is unknown.

Possibly caused to facilitate theft?
The thieves do have bolt cutters, to open the containers. Could be used on the switch locks too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQrTORBS-co&ab_channel=GermaninVenice

Thousands of Amazon,UPS Packages stolen off Cargo Trains in Los Angeles Downtown

YouTube
Show threadLisPiJan 18, 2024
@sidereal Interesting how badly secured the trains are.
Show threadMike KnellJan 19, 2024

@sidereal Except the passenger carriages would still be coupled to the loco, and couplings are designed not to break easily because they have to be able to handle the combination of the tractive effort of the loco plus whatever forces are acting in the opposite direction. Splitting points doesn’t result in a nice neat detachment or a catch point style derailment, it makes a heck of a mess.

My preferred train nerd answer to the stupid trolley problem is “neither, as rail vehicles like this are equipped with multiple emergency braking systems and safety devices thanks to 180 years of strict government regulation and accident research”.

Show threadMajor Denis BloodnokJan 19, 2024
@m @sidereal If you want to rob the train, do you care? (In particular, cold-bloodedly, submitting all the passengers to a shaking-around reduces the odds that they interfere...)
Show threadMike KnellJan 19, 2024
@denisbloodnok Depends. Actually killing them when the train jackknifes would cause problems- but yeah, in general the best way to rob a train has always been to find a point (aha) where it isn’t going to be going very fast and forcing it to stop. And trains back then didn’t exactly speed down the line by modern standards.
Show threadChookMother 🇦🇺🦘Jan 19, 2024
@sidereal So the locomotive just magically unhitches from the carriages? I thought they would be engineered to prevent that.
Show threadEnema CowboyJan 20, 2024
@sidereal Are the thieves cutting the locks on switches, or are they doing this in CTC areas?
Show threadJennifer Moore 😷Jan 18, 2024

@sidereal

Haha excellent!

Show threadsiderealJan 18, 2024
@unchartedworlds Railroad workers in the field figured out this "ethical conundrum" decades if not centuries ago 😂
Show threadDieuJan 18, 2024
@sidereal race condition to the rescue
Show threadmmu_manJan 18, 2024
@sidereal "I don't believe in no-win scenarios."
Show threadKen GidleyJan 19, 2024
@mmu_man @sidereal Ha! The Capt Kirk/ Kobayashi Maru solution - change the rules and/or cheat.
Show threadPanda CabJan 18, 2024
@sidereal
Show threadDr. Juande Santander-VelaJan 18, 2024
@FrenchPanda @sidereal direct link for everyone’s enjoyment… https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=1879
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - LLM

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - LLM

Show threadChris RealJan 18, 2024

@juandesant @FrenchPanda @sidereal

That cartoon was exquisite!

Show threadDr. Juande Santander-VelaJan 18, 2024
@_chris_real @FrenchPanda @sidereal the author can be found in the Fediverse, @ZachWeinersmith.
Show threadPanda CabJan 19, 2024

@juandesant @sidereal

I thought of mentioning the comic in the alt but forgot to do it outside ^^°

Show threadDr. Juande Santander-VelaJan 19, 2024
@FrenchPanda @sidereal I was able to find it quickly thanks to the alt-text pointer, thanks!
Show threadCadbury MooseJan 19, 2024

@FrenchPanda @sidereal

"An engineer is someone who can do for five bob what any bloody fool can do for a quid." Nevile Shute (I think).

Show threadStefan Baur 8 * 💉Jan 18, 2024
@sidereal This all sounds nice in theory. But due to Murphy's Law, attempting to pull this off with this particular make and model of tram wil lead to the tram toppling over, disintegrating violently, crushing and killing all of its passengers as well as killing all the people on the tracks with flying sharp-edged, high-velocity debris.
Show threadChris RealJan 18, 2024

@farbenstau @sidereal

Once again, theory disproves what practice has verified.

I hear you guys are still trying to figure out how houseflies can fly.

I guess, in the meantime they can't.

Excuse me while I go get my flyswatter.

(I guess you didn't read all the related posts.)

Show threadStefan Baur 8 * 💉Jan 18, 2024
@_chris_real @sidereal Murphy's Law doesn't become invalid only because you have n examples of where it worked just fine.
Do it to rob a train, it will work. Do it in a controlled test environment to prove a point, it will work. Do it to actually save someone's life, and it will fail in the most spectacular way you can imagine. Either just because of a random streak of misfortune or because there's some subtle detail that was different this time and that you missed during the execution of your plan. That's what Murphy's Law is all about.
Show threadChris RealJan 18, 2024

@farbenstau @sidereal

You just explained to me that a law is how things work, except that sometimes it doesn't work.

There, I simplified it for you.

Let's not go any further—you'll just be trying to save face, by obfuscating caveats and qualified conditionals.

And I don't care.

Show threadDamon L. WakesJan 19, 2024
@farbenstau @sidereal I feel as though you might enjoy this: https://damonwakes.itch.io/the-trolley-problem-problem
The Trolley Problem Problem by Damon L. Wakes

You have an important decision to make.

itch.io
Show threadStefan Baur 8 * 💉Jan 19, 2024
@DamonWakes @sidereal https://infosec.exchange/@farbenstau/111779804421415816 Hands-on approach best approach' 😉
Stefan Baur 6 * 💉 (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image @[email protected] Here's proof of the incident. Fella on the bottom left was a teammate of mine, fella in black crossing the track was my engineer, on his way back from checking how his colleague on the derailed locomotive was doing (turns out he was fine).

Infosec Exchange
Show threadhugovangalen 🤖 🕹️ 😼Jan 19, 2024

@farbenstau Yes, exactly this!

By introducing the possibility of the driver getting killed, or not, this all feels more like an elaborate Schrödingers Cat than a solution to the trolley problem.

@sidereal

Show threadbakkusJan 19, 2024
@farbenstau @sidereal See: every episode of "Well, there's your problem"
Show threadGemma 👽Jan 18, 2024
@sidereal But ☝️ 
Show threadMister DaveJan 21, 2024
@prettyhuman @sidereal i came here to post this, but i knew in my heart it had already been posted
Show threadNixieJan 18, 2024

@sidereal UNLESS...the two tracks are closely spaced together. In wich case you want to derail each bogey.

(I know, I know, only some older trams have bogeys, more modern ones have single wheelsets, but had to make the joke anyway)

Show threadJames WoodJan 20, 2024
@Nixie @sidereal Plenty of modern trams have bogies, including all of the examples I can think of. Normally you can't see them for the low floor.
Show threadKevin Boyd (he/him) 🇨🇦Jan 18, 2024
@sidereal @andrewfeeney that sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Show threadAndrew FeeneyJan 18, 2024
@kboyd @sidereal Dun dun dunnn! 🎺🎻🥁
Show threadsabikJan 19, 2024

@andrewfeeney @kboyd @sidereal
Eschede train disaster

A mechanical failure on car 1 ended up with a derailed wheel striking a switch, causing car 3 to straddle two tracks, taking out a support column for a road bridge, which then collapsed onto the back part of car 5 and onto car 6, flattening it to 15cm. The remaining six cars and the rear power car then slammed into the obstruction at 200 km/hr.

Show threadAndrew FeeneyJan 19, 2024
@sabik @kboyd @sidereal Oh wow, so this actually happened once. I was trying to imagine the geometry in my head and whether or not it could occur. My conclusion was that you could have one wheel on a rail for each side and the rest of the weight of the car would be resting on either a wheel dragging through sleepers or part of the car or bogies resting on the tracks, so it would slow down quickly or start rolling or something, but wouldn't slide along very long.
Show threadAndrew FeeneyJan 19, 2024
@sabik @kboyd @sidereal I guess at 200km/hr + no matter what you do the car will continue moving for a while. A streetcar though?
Show threadsabikJan 19, 2024

@andrewfeeney @kboyd @sidereal
Well, the anime panel seems to be showing front bogie on one track and rear bogie on another; that may almost be plausible?

In the disaster, yeah, moving at 200km/hr, things are going to keep moving; the rear end of car 3 was probably more thrown onto the bridge support rather than travelling along the passing loop in any orderly manner

Show threadSenil888 Jan 19, 2024
@kboyd @sidereal @andrewfeeney I was about to share this ​​ The worst outcome of trying this.
Show threadnano's old account's rotting corpseJan 18, 2024
@sidereal thank you rail workers <3
Show threadObsoleteJan 18, 2024
@sidereal
It derails and kills the guy slipping the switch 🙄
Show threadCurt ThomasJan 18, 2024
@sidereal
Ah, yes, dual track train drifts: Kills everyone, but looks sick AF.
Show threadLevkaJan 18, 2024

@sidereal

"The solution to the trolley problem is a transit worker strike." -- Emily Gorcenski

Show threadtyilJan 18, 2024
@sidereal This would kill the driver, and you'd still have killed someone. This is assuming a best case scenario where there are no passengers riding on the trolley too, which is very unlikely.
Show threadSimon ZerafaJan 18, 2024

@sidereal

Great solution.

I'd extend this by smashing the system that allows such a dangerous situation to happen 🫤✊

Show threadFlowermobJan 18, 2024
@sidereal or everyone dies