Derek Powazek 🐐People who say they don’t like nazis, but turn around and take money from nazis, and give money to nazis, do in fact like nazis.
#Substack
#Substack
Just a quick note to anyone thinking of quibbling about the difference between a nazi and someone who merely tolerates nazi content: when you're on their kill list, that difference disappears pretty quick.
This is why I'm talking about people profiting from nazi shit today: https://substack.com/@hamish/note/c-45811343
Hamish McKenzie (@hamish)
Hi everyone. Chris, Jairaj, and I wanted to let you know that we’ve heard and have been listening to all the views being expressed about how Substack should think about the presence of fringe voices on the platform (and particularly, in this case, Nazi views). I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don't think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse. We believe that supporting individual rights and civil liberties while subjecting ideas to open discourse is the best way to strip bad ideas of their power. We are committed to upholding and protecting freedom of expression, even when it hurts. As @Ted Gioia has noted, history shows that censorship is most potently used by the powerful to silence the powerless. (Ted’s note: https://substack.com/profile/4937458-ted-gioia/note/c-45421012) Our content guidelines do have narrowly defined proscriptions, including a clause that prohibits incitements to violence. We will continue to actively enforce those rules while offering tools that let readers curate their own experiences and opt in to their preferred communities. Beyond that, we will stick to our decentralized approach to content moderation, which gives power to readers and writers. While not everyone agrees with this approach, many people do, as indicated by @Elle Griffin’s post in defense of decentralized moderation on Substack, which was signed and endorsed by hundreds of writers on the platform, including some of the leading names in journalism, literature, and academia (see Elle’s post below). Even if we were in a minority of one, however, we would still believe in these principles. There also remains a criticism that Substack is promoting these fringe voices. This criticism appears to stem from my decision to host Richard Hanania, who was later outed as having once published extreme and racist views, on my podcast, The Active Voice. I didn’t know of those past writings at the time, and Hanania went on to disavow those views. While it has been uncomfortable and I probably would have done things differently with all the information in front of me, I ultimately don’t regret having him on the podcast. I think it’s important to engage with and understand a range of views even if—especially if—you disagree with them. Hanania is an influential voice for some in U.S. politics—his recent book, for instance, was published by HarperCollins—and there is value in knowing his arguments. The same applies to all other guests I have hosted on The Active Voice, including Hanania’s political opposites. We don’t expect everyone to agree with our approach and policies, and we believe it’s helpful for there to be continued robust debate of these issues. Six years into Substack, however, we have been encouraged by the quality of discourse on the platform. As Elle said in her letter: “We are still trying to figure out the best way to handle extremism on the internet. But of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.” Thanks for listening, and for caring, and thanks to everyone who publishes on Substack. We are here to serve you and will continue to do our very best in that mission.
Substack has a policy against porn, which is also tricky to define, and yet somehow they're able to limit content when it comes to adult material, but nazi shit is fine. They're perfectly happy to limit some content but not other content, so it's telling what they think is part of free speech and what isn't.
The most frustrating part is, it's so easy to say "take that shit somewhere else" when you run a bar or a website or any other group. That's literally your job when you create a space like that. I've seen people do it. I've done it. It's so fucking easy. You just go, "get out." And then they do. They have to. It's your place!
Anyone who says it's not easy is lying, and it's usually because they don't want it taken someplace else. They like it right where it is.
[ Jer moved instances ]@fraying What's frustrating to me is that Substack at launch was courting / paying assholes to use their platform. Most people only even heard of them because they were suddenly home to Andy Ngo, and other assholes. Yet people still signed up to publish there.
I have no sympathy for anyone who publishes on Substack who suddenly finds themselves needing to find a new provider.
I have no sympathy for anyone who publishes on Substack who suddenly finds themselves needing to find a new provider.
@nyquildotorg Yeah they've always been exactly this.
Sean "I Will Die On This" Hill@nyquildotorg @fraying I signed up on Substack two years ago because a friend told me they were seeing a huge surge in userbase due to a lot of comic artists and writers moving there. Literally never heard of the platform before that. Reasons for signing up there weren't malevolent. The only thing I have heard of making me reconsider their platform is their introduction of a text to speech AI. But I have nearly 200 posts on there, not exactly easy to just pick up sticks and leave a readerbase.
@scrhill @fraying Here's the most promising one I've seen: mastodon.social/@buttondown/111619857799616010
@nyquildotorg Ah fair enough, I read your post a little more aggressive than it was, sorry. As I've seen someone else say, indies are choosing services that are the best of a bad lot, you know?
I'll be checking that out, much appreciated!
Jessamyn@fraying The most frustrating part to me, besides all the others, is how they act like what they *think* ("Oh demonetization makes it worse!") seems to be more important than what we know about extremism in social spaces (i.e. deplatforming works)
@jessamyn also very frustrating!
Paul Riismandel@fraying Exactly! The right to free association includes the right to with whom to associate.
alastair87 (old account)@fraying Nazi stuff is may be harder to detect than porn, but they should still be able to get rid of it if they were so inclined. Not 100% of it, all of the time, but they could do it. It might even constitute a proper use for LLMs alongside human moderation.
Michael Gemar
Mark Stosberg@fraying The Substack Content policy here.
It says “ We may hide or remove explicit content from Substack’s discovery features, including search and on Substack.com.” It sounds like they may do that whether it violates their policies are not.
Substack could do the same to limit the reach of hate speech they allow on the platform, but they do not.
Content Guidelines
With Substack, anyone can start a publication that combines a personal website, blog, and email newsletter or podcast. It's quick and simple, so you don't have to be tech savvy. Your audience can pay you directly through subscriptions, with no ads to get in the way. Writers and podcasters can own their intellectual property, keep their mailing list, and start a media business.
Monica Rooney@fraying trying to say they’re doing us a favour by helping Nazis
Thiago@fraying WHOA, just WHOA.
I'm putting substack on my adblocker blocklist.
I'm putting substack on my adblocker blocklist.
Scott Orchard
jz.tusk
Matt Wilcox
Kudra 
@mattwilcox @fraying @anildash I am concerned by the number of people who don't understand the tolerance paradox.
@kudra @mattwilcox @anildash Right? Are they not teaching it in high school anymore or were these guys just bad students?
@fraying @mattwilcox @anildash they spend too much time in toxic social media that platforms Nazis, so they think the world is demonstrating that this is cool and normal, and their teachers suffer from woke mind virus 😎
David Mooney@fraying Wouldn't it be great if one of these techbros consulted with someone who studies this exact topic?
Is refusing to give someone a platform the same as censoring them? Does giving someone a platform somehow make their ideas less popular? 🤔 Who could ever know?
@davidm it’s really high school philosophy level “paradox of tolerance” shit.
Tim Boucher@fraying “subjecting ideas to open discourse is the best way to strip bad ideas of their power”
Well, that’s a bunch of horseshit. Let’s have an intelligent discussion about the pros and cons of wanting to exterminate certain groups. Yea or nay?
Plus that “open” “discourse” happened 80 years ago and we came to a conclusion on the topic.
Well, that’s a bunch of horseshit. Let’s have an intelligent discussion about the pros and cons of wanting to exterminate certain groups. Yea or nay?
Plus that “open” “discourse” happened 80 years ago and we came to a conclusion on the topic.
@fraying it was clear where this was going with the way they minimize the problem by talking about “fringe voices”.
charvakaAt a minimum you can say that their like of money outweighs any of their stated dislike of Nazis.
@charvaka When you're on the nazi's kill list, that's not much of a difference.
Craig Lee@fraying you mean like Spotify subscribers?
@cell911 I do. But I'm more talking about Substack at the moment.
CaseyLHas substack made no response at all to the open letter from the writers who publish there?
@CaseyL 3 hours ago: https://substack.com/@hamish/note/c-45811343
Hamish McKenzie (@hamish)
Hi everyone. Chris, Jairaj, and I wanted to let you know that we’ve heard and have been listening to all the views being expressed about how Substack should think about the presence of fringe voices on the platform (and particularly, in this case, Nazi views). I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don't think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse. We believe that supporting individual rights and civil liberties while subjecting ideas to open discourse is the best way to strip bad ideas of their power. We are committed to upholding and protecting freedom of expression, even when it hurts. As @Ted Gioia has noted, history shows that censorship is most potently used by the powerful to silence the powerless. (Ted’s note: https://substack.com/profile/4937458-ted-gioia/note/c-45421012) Our content guidelines do have narrowly defined proscriptions, including a clause that prohibits incitements to violence. We will continue to actively enforce those rules while offering tools that let readers curate their own experiences and opt in to their preferred communities. Beyond that, we will stick to our decentralized approach to content moderation, which gives power to readers and writers. While not everyone agrees with this approach, many people do, as indicated by @Elle Griffin’s post in defense of decentralized moderation on Substack, which was signed and endorsed by hundreds of writers on the platform, including some of the leading names in journalism, literature, and academia (see Elle’s post below). Even if we were in a minority of one, however, we would still believe in these principles. There also remains a criticism that Substack is promoting these fringe voices. This criticism appears to stem from my decision to host Richard Hanania, who was later outed as having once published extreme and racist views, on my podcast, The Active Voice. I didn’t know of those past writings at the time, and Hanania went on to disavow those views. While it has been uncomfortable and I probably would have done things differently with all the information in front of me, I ultimately don’t regret having him on the podcast. I think it’s important to engage with and understand a range of views even if—especially if—you disagree with them. Hanania is an influential voice for some in U.S. politics—his recent book, for instance, was published by HarperCollins—and there is value in knowing his arguments. The same applies to all other guests I have hosted on The Active Voice, including Hanania’s political opposites. We don’t expect everyone to agree with our approach and policies, and we believe it’s helpful for there to be continued robust debate of these issues. Six years into Substack, however, we have been encouraged by the quality of discourse on the platform. As Elle said in her letter: “We are still trying to figure out the best way to handle extremism on the internet. But of all the ways we’ve tried so far, Substack is working the best.” Thanks for listening, and for caring, and thanks to everyone who publishes on Substack. We are here to serve you and will continue to do our very best in that mission.
If the writers I support on Substack bail, then so will I.
It's a devil's bargain, but I do care about the writers I subscribe to.
bedast@fraying I like to use the bad apple analogy. Not the one where someone points out a bad apple and forgets the rest. The whole thing.
The bunch is spoiled.
@fraying this is why I cancelled all my Substack subscriptions last year. Do I want to support journalists and marginalized voices, of course. Do I want to support a platform that rakes in money from Nazis, Nazi supporters, and continues to wave their hands with something stupid about censoring Nazi views, absolutely not. If your argument is that the Nazis will go make money somewhere else unless they have your platform, you're a Nazi. #substack
@orchard Yup. I cancelled mine, too.
Martin Vermeer FCD@martinvermeer Yes. That was my point.
Ray Gulick, he/him/wtf 🇺🇦 ❌👑@fraying
Substack: "We don't like nazis, but when they bring us money, whaddya gonna do, eh?"
Substack: "We don't like nazis, but when they bring us money, whaddya gonna do, eh?"
Anthony Sorace@fraying “I wish everyone would stop doing the thing I both profit from and financially support!”
@a It's such weak sauce it can't even be counted as sauce.
Defiance!@fraying Not surprised. Wealthy Libertarians have always tolerated Nazis.
@Defiance don’t make me tap the sign: https://xoxo.zone/@fraying/109705562260628492
Esther Payne 
@fraying and TERFs. Although the link between ear right and TERFs is documented.
Graham Lineham has had a substack for years.
A man who literally whipped up a hate email mob against a Trans kid charity.
@onepict yeah he’s a piece of shit
Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág@fraying I found out what Substack is this morning. Well, this was a quick round trip 😆😆
Estarriol, Terrorist Dragon@fraying are nazis you meant.
@Thebratdragon don’t do that
@fraying don't do what?
Agree with you?
@Thebratdragon don’t tell strangers on the internet what they meant
@fraying oh ffs, stop being stoned and read what I said.
Stephen B@fraying You're making me glad that I signed up for substack but never got around to posting anything. Makes it easier to disconnect.
Andy K@fraying as the old joke suggests, Substack and Hamish have shown who they are and now we are just haggling over their profit.