Mastodawn

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@elCelio @pmroman
I agree that the majority have 0 interest in making the EU work better (it would be a perk, if only someone else did the work and the vision thingy and ONLY as long as it doesn't inconvenience them)... BUT. That might turn out for the better under the right circumstances (and with vastly improved personnel - but that's on us, the voters).

I think we NEED more, not less, politics. Not the way Orban does it, but these clashes of interests are normal.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@elCelio @pmroman
I think they started paying attention to the EU and fighting regularly about EU matters because the EU started to matter more and more. Sure, most of them have no interest in geopolitics (or anything past the next elections), for example, but just because they're not interested it doesn't mean that geopolitics isn't interested in them.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio Right, exactly like in any other elected legislative territorial chamber, their next election. Now, want to improve things? Start with a functional parliament of no more than 425 members.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
I agree. Where do I vote for it?

I'd vote for that.
The EUCO won't let me, they block any sniff of a reform.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio You vote in your state, each time you vote in the general election. Historically Senates are not by direct election.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
No, sorry: it here means EU reform. I DO want to improve things. Where do I vote for it? Where's the reform initiative I can endorse?

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio Well, vote for me, if I ever run 😀

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
Can't because we have no transnational lists, the Council won't let me. 😔

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio All it takes is me moving! See? With 400 members, a single member would have a lot more power, now they are individually irrelevant.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
Member states governments will not let them have power, you can cut it down to 45 or 27, the Council works as intended for an era in which is interesting to think of *2009* as its starting point... boy did they not cover themselves in glory with the financial crisis either. And they must have thought THAT was was hard. Hah. Welcome to the Accelerationist era. You won't have time for merkelling anymore.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE @elCelio It will get better, more integrated. Mr. Draghi is right, the current structure is at the end of its useful life, I believe there will be a fully functional structure by 2050-60, of course I won't be here to celebrate.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman @elCelio
"Mr. Draghi is right, the current structure is at the end of its useful life"

Glad to hear he agrees with me. 😆 It's certainly felt that way to me the more attention I paid to it.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE The diagnosis isn't the problem, moving forward is, but they'll find a way, they always did.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman It's a nice sentiment to have for a high-level discussion, I'm reveling in it. On the ground, the effects of getting it as wrong as they did for the financial crisis has devastating effects on entire generations and families who pay the price. I'm not surprised that many of my generation have not forgiven them. Except most aren't aware of who has the power, so the resentment transfers onto a nebulous "the EU" in Brussels.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE That's why it's very important to push for EU focused journalism and education. My generation suffered too, I know folks who bought into the private retirement schemes and have now a total value lower than the monthly pension they expected. Many have to sale their houses to survive after retirement. Their handling was catastrophic, and missed a chance for great infrastructural investments, the "no debt" obsession is irrational.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman I've had this open in another tab for 3 days. I'm not even sure I want to read it, I may need to buy alcohol first.

https://legrandcontinent.eu/fr/2023/12/13/lallemagne-contre-leurope-1/

L’Allemagne contre l’Europe ? | Le Grand Continent

Le plus grand paradoxe de l’Union se trouve en Allemagne. Alors que le pays est l’un des plus attachés à la construction européenne, il est aussi l’un des plus grands adversaires de ce processus. De ses choix budgétaires à sa diplomatie, cette perspective nourrie retrace l’histoire de politiques qui ont affaibli l’Union et l’Allemagne. En creux se pose une question : est-il encore possible de changer de trajectoire ?

Le Grand Continent

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE An interesting French perspective, but a perception nevertheless. I don't agree with their analysis which appears focused on achieving a predetermined conclusion. Very french. Good read anyway.

Veza85UE Dec 15, 2023

@pmroman Bon, j'allais le lire en italien pour la pratique de la langue (j'aime les deux langues mais je ne lis pas aussi souvent en italien qu'en français), mais je vais m'en tenir au français pour le terroir.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 15, 2023

@Veza85UE It's interesting, a good Friday before bed reading, the nightmares and all that!

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

https://legrandcontinent.eu/fr/2023/12/13/lallemagne-contre-leurope-1/

@pmroman, would you say more about

> I don't agree with their analysis

?

@Veza85UE, thank you for the link. What do you think about the analysis?

(I agree with the analysis. 🇨🇿 perspective.)

I want #MyEU conversation which is both pan-EU and "national". #BabelEU. #EnglishEU...

May I hear a reaction from #GermanyEU? (And #other places?)

L’Allemagne contre l’Europe ? | Le Grand Continent

Le plus grand paradoxe de l’Union se trouve en Allemagne. Alors que le pays est l’un des plus attachés à la construction européenne, il est aussi l’un des plus grands adversaires de ce processus. De ses choix budgétaires à sa diplomatie, cette perspective nourrie retrace l’histoire de politiques qui ont affaibli l’Union et l’Allemagne. En creux se pose une question : est-il encore possible de changer de trajectoire ?

Le Grand Continent

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@abolitionniste @Veza85UE To me, their analysis carries many of the French stereotypes regarding Germany. As an extremely centralized government, French analysts have a very hard time understanding the functioning of federal structures. Also France is a Presidential nation where the President has almost absolute power and is able to implement legislation regardless of the legislative. While all this nations share fundamentals, their systems are still very different.

Veza85UE Dec 16, 2023

@pmroman @abolitionniste
That's true, but having consensus-based politics is not an end goal in itself. It matters what the consensus *results* are too, no? And so this in particular also feels true to me (I don't speak German so I'm not as informed about their internal politics as I should be, but at EU level? Yeah, sounds about right...)

And other than the occassional frustrated economist or defence analyst, when you waddle in this EU consensus with them, it feels like talking to a cult.

Veza85UE Dec 16, 2023

@pmroman @abolitionniste
OK, the server's not letting me attach screenshots, so I was referring to the Le paradoxe allemand first paragraph, up to là aussi avec le soutien de la grande majorité de sa population.

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

> Since European integration began, Germany has unquestionably been one of the countries in Europe, if not the country in Europe, most committed to this process, whatever the political hue of its government and with the overwhelming support of German society.

@Veza85UE @pmroman

1/2

abolitionniste 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

> And yet, for several decades now, it is also the country that has regularly seriously jeopardised European integration by rigidly defending positions that undermine the Union and its future, whatever the colour of its government at the time and with the support of the vast majority of its population.

@Veza85UE @pmroman

2/2

Veza85UE Dec 16, 2023

@abolitionniste @pmroman
Děkuji.
There are other areas in which the machine is agonisingly slow, but once it gets going it's reliable, you can count on it (military aid to Ukraine). So I give credit where it's due. But it's crucial that the consensus on "Russia is our friend and cheap gas station" is more mercantile than cultural, imo. Once it became a threat to security (and thus bad for business) AND an unreliable supplier, well. Not hard to change one's mind.

pmroman 🇪🇺Dec 16, 2023

@Veza85UE @abolitionniste Yes, Russia is out friend, we can build cheaper cars in X place, let's connect the cost of electricity to the price of gas so German industry remains competitive...but the same type of position applies to most nations.

@pmroman @abolitionniste
Usually not with the same consequences for the rest of us. Please don't feed their "Big Switzerland 🥺" delusions, lol.
Sure, France does the same with agriculture (tho it seemed a lot more anathema in the heyday of globalisation and "peace dividend" when food security and supply chains were seen as set in stone). Sure, Poland does the same with coal, it kills a few thousand Europeans each year, primarily its own citizens. It tried to block the EU's coalexit, BUT...

Veza85UE Dec 16, 2023

@pmroman @abolitionniste Morawiecki got sent to the loo and they did it as EU26 anyway. I can't imagine that ever happening to Scholz, especially not on SGP "reform". It's NOT just any other country.