Kevin CarsonNov 25, 2023
The Only Democracy In The Middle East, everybody: Israeli Minister of Communications has begun the process of shutting down Israeli paper Haaretz for being “anti-patriotic” when it revealed that Israeli Helicopters were responsible for killing civilians on Oct. 7th. Many eye witness accounts confirmed this only days after Oct 7.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-23/ty-article/israels-communications-minister-threatens-haaretz-suggests-penalizing-its-war-coverage/0000018b-fd0c-de73-a9bb-ffefb9f10000
Show threadFardels BearNov 25, 2023

@KevinCarson1

Another similarity between Netanyahu and Putin. Both are occupying territory that doesn't belong to them, murdering civilian populations, and threatening media outlets that don't toe the government line.

Show threaddatenritter Nov 25, 2023
@riggbeck @KevinCarson1 Ahem. Israel occupies what exactly? You might want to check your maps.
Show threadJorgeNov 27, 2023

@datenritter This is a map of the West Bank elaborated by UN in 2020: https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/westbank_a0_25_06_2020_final.pdf

It counts more than 600k settlers, and includes military bases, roads prohibited to palestinians, and "Area C" (Full Israeli control over security, planning and construction). According to Wikipedia, Area C comprises 61% of the West Bank land.

Show threaddatenritter Nov 27, 2023

@jalda Yeah, that settlement bullshit should stop.

I find the comparison to Putin bizarre though. Ukraine never wanted to drive Russia into the sea, nor did they fail to control their own territory or even to sign a contract. Neither did Israel wipe complete cities of the map.

Anyway, I understand how you'd consider this an occupation.

Show threadJorge
@datenritter Putin has his own selection of bullshit excuses, from Ukraine being full of nazis to being secretly developing biological and chemical weapons. When you want to justify an occupation and mass killing, finding a bullshit excuse is literally the easiest part.
Nov 27, 2023 at 10:12pmWeb
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Beeing killed by the millions looks like a good excuse to me. It is no surprise, Israel defends itself so decisively and violently. And yes, radical forces grow in this environment.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Putin does not have any legitimate reason. Also his state is literally the opposite of Israel with the widest land mass of all states while Israel is kind of a thin beach. Again: Simplification and equalization of actions of dictators/terrorists with acts of self-defence is not okay.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter We agree that Putin doesn't have any legitimate reason, I thought "bullshit excuses to justify an occupation and mass killing" was clear enough.

But I find highly concerning that you think being "kind of a thin beach" is a legitimate reason. Google Lebensraum maybe?

Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda I don't have to google it. The "Lebensraum im Osten" idea is part of the antisemitic, mass-murdering ideology of the Nazi regime. The very same that killed millions of Jews, many of them in the area thought to be the "Lebensraum" for "Arians". The experience of near annihilation is what shaped Israel. It is literally the foundation. And it's considered antisemitic to suggest Israel would do "the same" now. It might backfire most terribly, because: How many Arab organisations do you know that officially want or wanted to drive the Jews "into the sea"?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter Minister without Portfolio Gideon Sa’ar has suggested annexing parts of Gaza.

Gamliel’s ministry circulated a paper on expelling the population of Gaza into the Sinai desert.

Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter said that Israel is “rolling out the Gaza Nakba.”

Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu has threatened to hand over Gaza’s land to former Israeli settlers and current Israeli soldiers.

Israel's officially position is to drive Palestinians "into the sea"

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter This isn't about the self-defense of Israel. This is about them needing more land (because Israel is a "thin beach") and grabbing it by force at the cost of the lives of the "human animals" that live in Gaza.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter Or maybe it is also antisemitic to point out that the portrayal of Palestinians by Israeli ministers as "human animals" is the same as the portrayal of Jews by Hitler as "vermin"?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter My idea of "Not Again" is that it applies no matter who is the perpetrator. Yours seems to be that the victims of the past have the right to become the perpetrators in the present, and that clears them of any criticism.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023

@jalda No, Israel's government is by no means immune to criticism. LOL.

Seriously, that's a myth.

Just because YOUR criticism is… well, criticized, doesn't mean there is nothing valid to say. Some of the criticism is just antisemitic, based on myths, propaganda, cherry picking, oversimplification etc.

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter All of my criticism was based on the military actions and public declarations of Israeli officials. I have made no mention of religious or ethnic motives. I have made similar criticism (including in this conversation) about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Does it make me anti-slavic in addition to antisemitic?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter I have provide source for all my claims from the UN and from prestigious newspapers, so I don't know what you mean about myths and propaganda?

And I have tried to be as general as possible, giving examples of both the past two months and the past decades. If you think they are cherry-picked, please provide examples of how loving is the IDF towards Palestinian civilians. They shouldn't be hard to found (if mine were cherry-picked)!

Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda You ever heard about roof-knocking? https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/the-story-of-idfs-innovative-tactic-to-avoid-civilian-casualties-in-gaza-663170
How the IDF invented 'Roof Knocking', the tactic that saves lives in Gaza

Israel could have taken the easy way out and attacked without phone calls or warning strikes. But it didn’t. The IDF officers and soldiers in the command center knew what they had to do.

The Jerusalem Post
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter And still more than 11000 killed in one month and a half. Imagine that a foreign army sent you a text to evacuate your home in five (5!) minutes. Five minutes to evacuate your family, that could include babies, old people, people with disabilities. And by an army that has targeted people fleeing [1], ambulances [2] and refugee camps [3]. Would you feel safe?

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252
[2] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/health-ministry-gaza-says-israel-targeted-convoy-ambulances-leaving-al-shifa-2023-11-03/
[3] https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209763194/the-latest-on-israels-bombing-of-the-largest-gazan-refugee-camp

Show threadJorgeDec 9, 2023
@datenritter Have you ever heard about power targets? https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.

+972 Magazine
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Then why didn't they keep Sinai at the time?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter You mean the Desert of Sinai? Yeah, I cannot understand why they would turn down on a piece of desert and grab fertile lands in the banks of a river and (according to several Israeli ministers) in the coast.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Again: Double standards. Those are statements made after October 7th. A "circulating paper" is not the official position of a state, neither does some agricultural minister have anything to do with foreign politics. Israel would lose international support acting like that.
There have always been radicals in Israel, and you might remember heavy protests against them until just before October 7th.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter What do you mean by "would lose international support acting like that". Israel IS acting like that, and countries like the USA and Germany have vowed to support them unconditionally.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter Can you provide your source for "killed by the millions"? According to the UN, between 2003 and September 2023 there were 311 Israeli casualties (and 6621 Palestinian casualties in the same period, a 1:20 ratio) https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
and the terrorist attack on October 7 were another 1500 Israeli killed.
Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory

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United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023

@jalda Google "Holocaust" maybe?

Many Jews emigrated to the area between 1930 and 1945, later they were driven out of various parts of the Arab world. It's a state who's whole existence is based on fighting back murderers.

(Yes, I am aware of the Nakba.)

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter So them being killed by the millions by the Germans 90 years ago gives them the right to kill Palestinians by the tens of thousands today? Flawless logic.

And you are aware of the first Nakba but still are in denial of the second Nakba that is happening right before our eyes.