Kevin CarsonNov 25, 2023
The Only Democracy In The Middle East, everybody: Israeli Minister of Communications has begun the process of shutting down Israeli paper Haaretz for being “anti-patriotic” when it revealed that Israeli Helicopters were responsible for killing civilians on Oct. 7th. Many eye witness accounts confirmed this only days after Oct 7.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-23/ty-article/israels-communications-minister-threatens-haaretz-suggests-penalizing-its-war-coverage/0000018b-fd0c-de73-a9bb-ffefb9f10000
Show threadFardels BearNov 25, 2023

@KevinCarson1

Another similarity between Netanyahu and Putin. Both are occupying territory that doesn't belong to them, murdering civilian populations, and threatening media outlets that don't toe the government line.

Show threaddatenritter Nov 25, 2023
@riggbeck @KevinCarson1 Ahem. Israel occupies what exactly? You might want to check your maps.
Show threadJorge

@datenritter This is a map of the West Bank elaborated by UN in 2020: https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/westbank_a0_25_06_2020_final.pdf

It counts more than 600k settlers, and includes military bases, roads prohibited to palestinians, and "Area C" (Full Israeli control over security, planning and construction). According to Wikipedia, Area C comprises 61% of the West Bank land.

Nov 27, 2023 at 8:09pmWeb
Show threaddatenritter Nov 27, 2023

@jalda Yeah, that settlement bullshit should stop.

I find the comparison to Putin bizarre though. Ukraine never wanted to drive Russia into the sea, nor did they fail to control their own territory or even to sign a contract. Neither did Israel wipe complete cities of the map.

Anyway, I understand how you'd consider this an occupation.

Show threadJorgeNov 27, 2023

@datenritter As I said in the previous toot, it is not just "settlement bullshit". It is military bases, road segregation, blockades in Gaza (the wall was built in 1994 and the blockade started in 2005, one year before Hamas took power).

This is a constant policy of the Israeli government for the last couple of decades, no matter if they are far-right, center or left-wing.

Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Okay, so there are settlements which from a Palestinian perspective dismember the land, which they hope to be Palestine one day, while (some) Jewish folks believe it's their right or the right thing to do or whatever. Many parts of that map have been agreed upon with the Oslo agreement, though, so just presenting it is a bit of a simplification. Protective measures have been installed after the intifada - and probably not reduced after the split between PLO and Hamas. I mean would you pull back your military from a terrorist infested area?
Then there are radical settlers who believe they have to push Palestinians away and terrorize them, which while I cannot even estimate the real number of events is definitely propaganda material for terrorists.
After Oct. 7 the maps might be redrawn again as the largest killing of Jewish people after the Holocaust triggered a strong self-defence reflex in Israel and also empowered radical forces which, once again, undermine any peace efforts.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Mix in some Iranian influence and support for terrorists intended to destabilize the area.
(US support on the other hand seems to have better intentions.)
Show threadJorgeNov 27, 2023
@datenritter Putin has his own selection of bullshit excuses, from Ukraine being full of nazis to being secretly developing biological and chemical weapons. When you want to justify an occupation and mass killing, finding a bullshit excuse is literally the easiest part.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Beeing killed by the millions looks like a good excuse to me. It is no surprise, Israel defends itself so decisively and violently. And yes, radical forces grow in this environment.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Putin does not have any legitimate reason. Also his state is literally the opposite of Israel with the widest land mass of all states while Israel is kind of a thin beach. Again: Simplification and equalization of actions of dictators/terrorists with acts of self-defence is not okay.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter We agree that Putin doesn't have any legitimate reason, I thought "bullshit excuses to justify an occupation and mass killing" was clear enough.

But I find highly concerning that you think being "kind of a thin beach" is a legitimate reason. Google Lebensraum maybe?

Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda I don't have to google it. The "Lebensraum im Osten" idea is part of the antisemitic, mass-murdering ideology of the Nazi regime. The very same that killed millions of Jews, many of them in the area thought to be the "Lebensraum" for "Arians". The experience of near annihilation is what shaped Israel. It is literally the foundation. And it's considered antisemitic to suggest Israel would do "the same" now. It might backfire most terribly, because: How many Arab organisations do you know that officially want or wanted to drive the Jews "into the sea"?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter Minister without Portfolio Gideon Sa’ar has suggested annexing parts of Gaza.

Gamliel’s ministry circulated a paper on expelling the population of Gaza into the Sinai desert.

Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter said that Israel is “rolling out the Gaza Nakba.”

Minister of Heritage Amichai Eliyahu has threatened to hand over Gaza’s land to former Israeli settlers and current Israeli soldiers.

Israel's officially position is to drive Palestinians "into the sea"

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter This isn't about the self-defense of Israel. This is about them needing more land (because Israel is a "thin beach") and grabbing it by force at the cost of the lives of the "human animals" that live in Gaza.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter Or maybe it is also antisemitic to point out that the portrayal of Palestinians by Israeli ministers as "human animals" is the same as the portrayal of Jews by Hitler as "vermin"?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter My idea of "Not Again" is that it applies no matter who is the perpetrator. Yours seems to be that the victims of the past have the right to become the perpetrators in the present, and that clears them of any criticism.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023

@jalda No, Israel's government is by no means immune to criticism. LOL.

Seriously, that's a myth.

Just because YOUR criticism is… well, criticized, doesn't mean there is nothing valid to say. Some of the criticism is just antisemitic, based on myths, propaganda, cherry picking, oversimplification etc.

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter All of my criticism was based on the military actions and public declarations of Israeli officials. I have made no mention of religious or ethnic motives. I have made similar criticism (including in this conversation) about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Does it make me anti-slavic in addition to antisemitic?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter I have provide source for all my claims from the UN and from prestigious newspapers, so I don't know what you mean about myths and propaganda?

And I have tried to be as general as possible, giving examples of both the past two months and the past decades. If you think they are cherry-picked, please provide examples of how loving is the IDF towards Palestinian civilians. They shouldn't be hard to found (if mine were cherry-picked)!

Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda You ever heard about roof-knocking? https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/the-story-of-idfs-innovative-tactic-to-avoid-civilian-casualties-in-gaza-663170
How the IDF invented 'Roof Knocking', the tactic that saves lives in Gaza

Israel could have taken the easy way out and attacked without phone calls or warning strikes. But it didn’t. The IDF officers and soldiers in the command center knew what they had to do.

The Jerusalem Post
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter And still more than 11000 killed in one month and a half. Imagine that a foreign army sent you a text to evacuate your home in five (5!) minutes. Five minutes to evacuate your family, that could include babies, old people, people with disabilities. And by an army that has targeted people fleeing [1], ambulances [2] and refugee camps [3]. Would you feel safe?

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252
[2] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/health-ministry-gaza-says-israel-targeted-convoy-ambulances-leaving-al-shifa-2023-11-03/
[3] https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209763194/the-latest-on-israels-bombing-of-the-largest-gazan-refugee-camp

Show threadJorgeDec 9, 2023
@datenritter Have you ever heard about power targets? https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.

+972 Magazine
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Then why didn't they keep Sinai at the time?
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter You mean the Desert of Sinai? Yeah, I cannot understand why they would turn down on a piece of desert and grab fertile lands in the banks of a river and (according to several Israeli ministers) in the coast.
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda Again: Double standards. Those are statements made after October 7th. A "circulating paper" is not the official position of a state, neither does some agricultural minister have anything to do with foreign politics. Israel would lose international support acting like that.
There have always been radicals in Israel, and you might remember heavy protests against them until just before October 7th.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter What do you mean by "would lose international support acting like that". Israel IS acting like that, and countries like the USA and Germany have vowed to support them unconditionally.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter Can you provide your source for "killed by the millions"? According to the UN, between 2003 and September 2023 there were 311 Israeli casualties (and 6621 Palestinian casualties in the same period, a 1:20 ratio) https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
and the terrorist attack on October 7 were another 1500 Israeli killed.
Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory

function checkmobile(){ let check = false; (function(a){if(/(android|bb\d+|meego).+mobile|avantgo|bada\/|blackberry|blazer|compal|elaine|fennec|hiptop|iemobile|ip(hone|od)|iris|kindle|lge |maemo|midp|mmp|mobile.+firefox|netfront|opera m(ob|in)i|palm( os)?|phone|p(ixi|re)\/|plucker|pocket|psp|series(4|6)0|symbian|treo|up\.(browser|link)|vodafone|wap|windows ce|xda|xiino|android|ipad|playbook|silk/i.test(a)||/1207|6310|6590|3gso|4thp|50[1-6]i|770s|802s|a wa|abac|ac(er|oo|s\

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - Occupied Palestinian Territory
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023

@jalda Google "Holocaust" maybe?

Many Jews emigrated to the area between 1930 and 1945, later they were driven out of various parts of the Arab world. It's a state who's whole existence is based on fighting back murderers.

(Yes, I am aware of the Nakba.)

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter So them being killed by the millions by the Germans 90 years ago gives them the right to kill Palestinians by the tens of thousands today? Flawless logic.

And you are aware of the first Nakba but still are in denial of the second Nakba that is happening right before our eyes.

Show threadJorgeNov 27, 2023

@datenritter Israel in one and a half month killed 1 out every 200 Gazans [1], amounting to more of 11000 civilians. Russia in 19 months has killed 9700 civilians [2]. If Israel didn't "wipe complete cities" is because Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, not because they were less bloodthirsty than Russia.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/gaza-rising-death-toll-civilians/
[2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-24-september-2023

Gaza’s death toll: 1 out of every 200 have been killed, according to Health Ministry

More than 11,100 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since Oct. 7, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry. They include doctors, journalists, professors and poets.

The Washington Post
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023
@jalda In Gaza ylu mean? The problem with attributions like "bloodthirsty" is they oversimplify the situation and mask Hamas' actions. Hamas turned hospitals into military compounds, making them legitimate targets. The IDF could just flatten the place, yet they send ground troops to minimize casualties and are still criticised for "attacking a hospital". I am fed up with the double standards.
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter Israel raided the Al-Shifa hospital on November 14, and two weeks later still hasn't produced a single piece of evidence of terrorist activity. Surely the burden of proof should be much stronger before taking military actions against an hospital.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/11/23/idf-gaza-hospital-tunnels-director-arrested/

Inside the tunnels beneath Gaza's Al-Shifa hospital

The Telegraph has analysed and geolocated a tranche of footage released by the IDF showing tunnels with inter-connected rooms

The Telegraph
Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023

@jalda See that's what I mean by double standards. You see the tunnels, you know Hamas use these tunnels, you know Hamas use civilians as humans shields, you know Israel could just have bombed the place instead of besieging it, and you also know there is a lot of intelligence work going on in the background. Israel has aerial reconnaissance and informers. Still you hold to the idea Israel needs to deliver perfect proof, at least two days before, kindly asking the international community to allow the attack, while Hamas just moves out of the place? Why should Israel even be 100% sure in a warzone? Completely unrealistic. Also, since when is Hamas expected to leave litter in tunnels? WTF?

IDF claim they brought medical supplies with them. (No proof, but again: They didn't flatten the place.)

There are recordings from CCTV and other indications for Hamas activity, including at least 5 killed Hamas fighters.

And there's this from 2015: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/hamas-tortured-and-killed-palestinian-collaborators-during-gaza-conflict-new-report

You want more sources?

Hamas tortured and killed Palestinian 'collaborators' during Gaza conflict - new report

We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights.

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter Of course there is a double standard! Hamas is a terrorist group. Asking to treat Israel the same way as Hamas is asking to treat them as a terrorist group, and not as a democratic country where the rule of law applies.

Anyway the Israeli claim was that the hospital was a key command center. Now the claim is that there are tunnels and at some point some terrorists passed by. Moving the goalposts.

Show threaddatenritter Nov 28, 2023

@jalda This is the best and most neutral and fact-based video I have found so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2cPTxpfveU

Big part of it covers the two famous hospitals.

Tunnels and AI report are enough evidence for me. The hospitals are still there btw.

Israel’s Ground Assault to Cease-Fire

YouTube
Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023

@datenritter I'm at work, so I can't watch any videos.

Yes, the tunnels exist. Part of them were built by Israel in the 90s, and it seems that the Palestinians later expanded them. However, that doesn't prove the intention behind the expansion.

In a cursory search, I have found no news articles about an AI report. Without more details, I cannot tell if the AI report is trustworthy or the usual LLM hallucination.

Show threadJorgeNov 28, 2023
@datenritter Anyway, the point isn't whether it's enough evidence for you. The point is whether this could be considered "acts harmful to the enemy" as defined in Art.19 of the Geneva Convention IV, which is the only case where it is legal to attack a civilian hospital. And the mere existence of tunnels is not enough to declare that the hospital was used in harmful acts.
Show threaddatenritter Dec 6, 2023

@jalda It doesn't matter how you interpret the situation. Hamas had been using the hospital and the tunnels below. It's just not plausible they just stopped that after the 1990. Also there are reports about the use. They didn't really look abandoned. Then there's intelligence. It's not like Israel is blind. Not everyone in Gaza loves Hamas. *cough*

The IDF did not bomb the hospital, they literally walked there and shot terrorists which is absolutely okay. Also keep in mind that Hamas is by no means respecting the Geneva Conventions or anything like that.

Show threadJorgeDec 6, 2023

@datenritter I never claimed that they bombed it, I used the word "raided".

But anyways, Al-Shifa isn't the only hospital attacked by Israel. A couple of days after that, Israel hit the Indonesian Hospital with artillery fire, and probably also hit by an airstrike.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/20/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news

Show threadJorgeDec 6, 2023

@datenritter As for interpretations, the chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court, Karim Khan, is very clear about Israel's (as well as Hamas') breaches of the Geneva conventions.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/10/law-israel-hamas-international-criminal-court-icc

We are witnessing a pandemic of inhumanity: to halt the spread, we must cling to the law

There is no blank cheque in the Israel-Hamas conflict. The ICC is working to ensure justice is on the frontlines, says Karim Khan of the ICC

The Guardian
Show threadJorgeDec 6, 2023
@datenritter "For those responsible for targeting and firing missiles, I wish to be clear on three points in particular. One: in relation to every dwelling house, in relation to any school, any hospital, any church, any mosque – those places are protected, unless the protective status has been lost because they are being used for military purposes."
Show threadJorgeDec 6, 2023
@datenritter "Two: if there is a doubt that a civilian object has lost its protective status, the attacker must assume that it is protected. Three: the burden of demonstrating that this protective status is lost rests with those who fire the gun, the missile, or the rocket in question."
Show threadJorgeDec 6, 2023
@datenritter It's not enough saying that "it is not plausible" or "that didn't look abandoned". Israel MUST show their hard evidence that the hospital or the tunnels were used for military purposes (not just used).
Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023

@datenritter Now it turns out that, according to WaPo, there is no evidence of military use of the tunnels, and that the tunnels weren't even connected to or accessible from the hospital. But it is a good thing that "plausibility" is good enough for you to support and cheer for war crimes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

The case of al-Shifa: Investigating the assault on Gaza’s largest hospital

The evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, a Post analysis shows.

The Washington Post
Show threaddatenritter Dec 22, 2023

@jalda WaPo writes: "no *immediate* evidence". Uhuh.

All those tunnels, unused? In Gaza? Amazing. As if someone had cleaned the place up.
Why did the IDF enter the hospital then? For giggles? You know they brought supplies, right? Why would they shoot armed Hamas fighters inside that hospital? You want to tell me those were doctors? Those AKs are no medical equipment, are they? What war crimes are you fantasizing about? The only war crime here is Hamas entering the hospital with guns. Oh, and also keeping people hostage.
We know the tunnels had been in use until at least a few years ago. Hamas tortured people down there. Enough reason to enter.
You're trying to turn this into a fairy tale about places the IDF supposedly may not enter. Why? Because when a Jew put's a foot somewhere it's supposed to be a war crime? Or because you fall for every Hamas propaganda trap?
No other nation was ever asked to operate to such ridiculous standards.

Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023

@datenritter First of all, I never said anything about Jews, so "Because when a Jew put's a foot somewhere it's supposed to be a war crime" is just you projecting your own antisemitism.

As I told you a couple of times, the Geneva conventions clearly establish that an attack on hospitals is a warcrime, unless the hospital is been actively used at the moment to hurt the enemy. "We know the tunnels had been in use until at least a few years ago" is not nearly enough.

Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023
@datenritter And btw, the "immediate" part is important. The Geneva conventions require the evidence to exist *before* the attack, so if after almost two months the IDF is unable to show their evidence, it means that they didnt't have it *before* attacking the hospital. A textbook example of warcrime.
Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023

@datenritter In case you don't know, the Geneva conventions are the standards all countries are asked to operate.

Or did you defend Russia when they bombed hospitals in Ukraine?

Show threaddatenritter Dec 23, 2023

@jalda What is the war crime here? They went into a hospital and shot noone except 5 armed Hamas fighters. Whichbis yout evidence. I also mentioned the evidence that has been there *before*. You just ignored it.

You're crying "wAR cRiMe!!" as loud as you can, but you're running out of breath. As if the hospital had been shot to rubble, as if you didn't know Hamas had of course been in there, purposely.

You know.

Stop enabling.

Show threadJorgeDec 23, 2023

@datenritter As I said before, it is a violation of article 18 of the 4th Geneva Convention. That article forbids any attack on hospitals, not just "reducing them to rubble". And yes, that also include enemy combatants unless those enemies are using the hospital to actively hurt Israel.

And as we know from the WaPo article, the hospital was not connected to the tunnels, and the tunnels were not in use.

Show threadJorgeDec 23, 2023
@datenritter So if the WaPo article is right, either Israel's intelligence was wrong or it never existed in the first place. In any case, the burden of proof is on the party attacking the hospital, and Israel didn't do its job correctly.
Show threaddatenritter Dec 23, 2023
@jalda I am projecting? Dude, you are out of your mind. That's like saying anti-racism is racist, because you look at the ethnicity of people instead of ignoring it. Don't be a Trump.
Show threadJorgeDec 23, 2023
@datenritter No. You are constantly conflating Israel/IDF with Jew people, and deflecting any criticism for Israel gov as an attack against Jews. You are therefore erasing the individuality and identity of millions of Jew people all over the world. A clear sign of antisemitism.
Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023
@datenritter And according to WaPo, the tunnels are not connected to the hospital, just pass under it. So there is no justification to attack the hospital instead of the tunnels.
Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023
@datenritter Hamas entering the hospital with guns is indeed a warcrime. But as I told you some time ago, Hamas is a terrorist group. Israel is supposedly a democratic country. Their moral standard should be higher than "not committing warcrimes", but it seems it isn't the case.
Show threaddatenritter Dec 23, 2023

@jalda I am still quite convinced Israel has much higher standards than what I saw Hamas is up to.

Also there's a line between legitimate criticism and Hamas enabling propaganda. You have crossed that line more than once.

Show threadJorgeDec 23, 2023
@datenritter Care to elaborate? Please link me to one comment were I was "enabling Hamas propaganda". You have already accused me a couple of times of being antisemitic or falling for Hamas propaganda, but never provided a concrete example.
Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023

@datenritter "Why did the IDF enter the hospital then? For giggles?"

So your argument is the IDF was justified because they would never act in an unjustified manner? Do you realize that this is a circular argument, a logical fallacy, right?

Btw, this is the same IDF that has attacked christian churches, UN buildings, refugee camps, ambulances and even Israeli hostages waving white flags.

Show threaddatenritter Dec 23, 2023

@jalda Oh, you're trying to ramp up the Hamas propaganda with the white flag story now, huh? Because one accident totally tells us the IDF shoot jUsT EvERyoNe and make no difference, right? So dumb.

Let's not forget what the real problem is: Hamas. A murderous terror organization, not acting to any convention. They actually DID and PLANNED everything you mentioned, they throw hand grenades into bunkers with children inside, they abuse and kill the people of Gaza, they blackmail hospital personnel, they put up propaganda traps like no one else, e.g. force civilians into their death, so enablers like you can try to pin it on the IDF.

Won't work. Because Israel is a pluralist democracy with actual responsibility. A modern state with individual freedom, a free press and a working justice.

Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023

@datenritter "Or because you fall for every Hamas propaganda trap?"

All the links I provided you were from either UN or reputable western newspapers.

On the other hand, the only source you provided me was from "Times of Israel", a known propagandistic media.

Show threadJorgeDec 22, 2023
@datenritter Do you remember? It was a laughable article about "roof-knocking", i.e. that they purposely bombed and destroyed the houses of Palestinians that the IDF knew they were innocent. Which is a form of collective punishment, forbidden by article 33 of the 4th Geneva Convention. But the Times of Israel was cheering on (yet another) warcrime. Who is falling to every propaganda trap?