JA Westenberg
A thousand pop-sci anthropology hacks and TERFs just felt a disturbance in the force đŸ«Ą
Nov 8, 2023 at 11:11amIvory for iOS
Show threadMichaƂ "rysiek" WoĆșniak · đŸ‡ș🇩Nov 8, 2023

@Daojoan can't remember who put it this way (might have been David Graeber in "Debt"), but it really rings true:

Of course women were equal members of the pre-agriculture tribes! Survival was difficult, and any tribe that attempted to side-line a full *half* of their members from active participation in hunts etc would simply die off.

Show threadJA WestenbergNov 8, 2023
@rysiek exactly this!
Show threadauserNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan @rysiek Wait, there were ancient women?
Show threadTallbitchNov 8, 2023
Women were invented in the 1850’s to sell mimosas
Show threadauserNov 8, 2023
@tallbitch Before they were mimosos?
Show threadTallbitchNov 8, 2023
@auser why do you think they started selling mimosas
Show threadauserNov 8, 2023
@tallbitch Nice. I suppose people were bored of the same ol thing
Show threadhazelnot Nov 8, 2023
@rysiek @Daojoan Wtf I just now found out that David Graeber died in 2020 and The Dawn of Everything was published post-mortem
Show threadJA WestenbergNov 8, 2023
@hazelnot @rysiek I know! Huge loss.
Show threadEsslar2Nov 8, 2023
@hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan The Dawn of Everything was so astonishing to me that now I'm reading 3 other of Graeber's books. Someone who met and talked with Graeber said he realized after a little while that Graeber was a true genius. He really was brilliant.
Show threadBĂžrgeNov 8, 2023
@flyhigh @hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan Since you're talking so highly of Graeber here, I have to just pop in and say that you will probably like the podcast @srslywrong. They praise him quite often. And it's very good and funny.
Show threadEsslar2Nov 8, 2023
@forteller @hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan @srslywrong I'll listen, thanks!
Show threadhazelnot Nov 8, 2023
@flyhigh @rysiek @Daojoan @forteller @srslywrong I'm not talking highly of anyone, I never even read any of his work, I just heard of that book lol
Show threadEsslar2Nov 8, 2023
@hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan @forteller @srslywrong If you make it your aim to read that book, you will not be sorry. I was shocked at how little I really knew about human social history when I got through it. It changed my whole way of looking at society. I now think it is one of the finest books I've ever read.
Show threadRubyNov 8, 2023
@flyhigh @hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan @forteller @srslywrong it really does completely change one's perspective of the past of nothing else
Show threadfloNov 8, 2023

@forteller @flyhigh @hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan @srslywrong
Funny, I expected you to recommend "Everyday Anarchism" since he references to Graeber in almost every episode and the title, and right now does a series on Debt.

I totally love both shows!

Show threadGailV37Nov 8, 2023
@flyhigh @hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan
And just like that, I went from reading these comments to looking him up in the library, then downloading Dawn of Everything. I'd not heard of him before this thread. I love using social media to find new books to read.
Show threadRubyNov 8, 2023
@hazelnot @rysiek @Daojoan yes I only learned of his death after being enthralled by Dawn of Everything, so it kinda hit 🎯
Show threadjonny (good kind)Nov 9, 2023
@hazelnot
@rysiek
Yes, RIP. I only read his books after he had passed, huge loss.
Show threadRubyNov 8, 2023
@rysiek @Daojoan David Graeber is the man! Learned so much from him and his friend/colleague David Wengrow
Show threadRubyNov 8, 2023
@rysiek @Daojoan not just that, (this is again from The same authors), in early proto state like cities, it was often the kings wives who'd be the bureaucratic arm of the state; the wives as a collective had enormous power including the removal of the king of all the wives were in agreement
Show threadAmy đŸ‡čđŸ‡­đŸłïžâ€âš§ïžNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan Zwill be me when I get old (probably (or not))
Show threadDave T-WNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan Really good long read last week on how the myth of "Man the Hunter" came about and how it got trashed by, you know, evidence.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-theory-that-men-evolved-to-hunt-and-women-evolved-to-gather-is-wrong1/
The Theory That Men Evolved to Hunt and Women Evolved to Gather Is Wrong

The influential idea that in the past men were hunters and women were not isn’t supported by the available evidence

Scientific American
Show threadJA WestenbergNov 8, 2023
@davoloid ooh thank you! Will read over my morning coffee ☕
Show threadTrump & Epstein: Biz partners.Nov 8, 2023
@Daojoan
Of course, Grandma was only 28 years old.
Show threadTitia SchuurmanNov 8, 2023
@MugsysRapSheet @Daojoan I have no doubt you have sources for average birthing ages in prehistoric societies, would you mind sharing them? TIA
Show threadTrump & Epstein: Biz partners.Nov 8, 2023

@titia @Daojoan
The average lifespan of humans in prehistoric times was roughly 35. No medicine, no awareness of disease, bathing & cleanliness were as rare as clean drinking water.

As recently as 100 years ago, the average lifespan was just 65 (which is why "Social Security" & "Retirement" were set to 65.)

Just 250 years ago, "blood letting" was the "cure" for most diseases. That "Red & Blue" stripped barber poll we all know used to indicate the local barber was also a "physician".

Show threadLewisNov 8, 2023
@MugsysRapSheet @titia @Daojoan That makes sense. The UK government want to move retirement to 75.
It's still a joke as most will need to work forever and increasingly so as many will only be able to pay high rent versus buy their home.
Show threadTitia SchuurmanNov 8, 2023
@MugsysRapSheet @Daojoan It is well known, though, that the average lifespan was what it was because of relatively high infant mortality. If you survived infancy, chances were you lived well into middle age, is what I've gathered from discussions on the subject.
Show threadFake History HunterNov 8, 2023

@MugsysRapSheet @titia @Daojoan

Average life expectancy was low, average being the key word.
But this is a skewed perspective because the number was low due to high child mortality.
During the middle ages for instance those who survived childhood/birth had a decent chance of living well into their 60s.
They also had clean drinking water, bathing, cleanliness & were aware of disease.
Blood letting is still a thing.

Show threadMarjorieRNov 8, 2023
@MugsysRapSheet @Daojoan while life expectancy might have been limited in pre-historic hunting societies a lot of that would have been due to high mortality rates at birth or soon after birth (and yes, childbirth would kill some mothers too). Nevertheless when we look at contempory hunting groups without the benefits of modern medicine, we usually see a good sprinkling of real elders. But I agree, /becoming/ a grandma at 28 would not be abnormal.
Show threadcwicseolfor (has moved!)Nov 8, 2023
@MugsysRapSheet @Daojoan Age of menarche has plummeted due to ubiquitous availability of high calorie foodstuffs, and in pre-industrial societies outside of nobility you tended to see it around 16-17. So first births were likely happening anywhere from 17-20. Grandma was for sure still highly mobile, but she was also probably old enough to be elected president of the US.
Show threadGensNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan Feudal japanese women were the last line of defence of a household.
Show threadFemme MalheureuseNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan link to that NPR piece for your readers https://www.npr.org/2023/06/28/1184894580/ancient-women-were-hunters-and-grandmas-were-the-most-skilled-ones-study-suggest
Show threadBennett ToddNov 8, 2023

@Daojoan I just finished enjoying Cat Bohannon's Eve, which covers this well.

#books

Show threadDadsForSensibleCurfewsNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan 10,000 red mad nude mra losers
Show threadchulsNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan I feel like a lot of writers' fingers must be tingling seeing this.
Show threadMistherFrenchFriesNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan Came here to hermit, not hunt, but thanks for more reading. My grandma decided she’d rather check out early right before Covid hit. If that’s not a hunter witch’s instinct I don’t know what is.
Show threadOregon Wine WomanNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan 😁
Show threadWolfgang FeistNov 8, 2023

@Daojoan

Okay, das wĂŒrde natĂŒrlich eine Menge erklĂ€ren...😉🙁

Die Art der "nackten Affen" wÀre dann durch und durch kriegerisch veranlagt.

Übrigens: Das halte ich fĂŒr unwahrscheinlich; denn dann hĂ€tte wir uns schon lĂ€ngts ausgerottet. Wir können eben auch anders; wenn wir wollen.

Show threadAnomielia the #DREADpirateNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan
I don't understand what "TERFs" have to do with this?
Show threadJohn Christian LĂžnningdalNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan , today ancient women are grandmas.
Show threadVectorheartNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan wait until they find out gender queerdom existed in Pagan and Native American tribes.
Show threadBadscrewNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan
You’ve been a grandma at 25 back then
Show threadRain DogNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan oh wow a straight up human analogy to orcas this is so COOOOOOOOL
Show threadRain DogNov 8, 2023

@Daojoan just in case I was able to track down the original paper, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0287101

through Dr. Wall-Scheffler's site at https://wallscheffler.wordpress.com/

The Myth of Man the Hunter: Women’s contribution to the hunt across ethnographic contexts

The sexual division of labor among human foraging populations has typically been recognized as involving males as hunters and females as gatherers. Recent archeological research has questioned this paradigm with evidence that females hunted (and went to war) throughout the Homo sapiens lineage, though many of these authors assert the pattern of women hunting may only have occurred in the past. The current project gleans data from across the ethnographic literature to investigate the prevalence of women hunting in foraging societies in more recent times. Evidence from the past one hundred years supports archaeological finds from the Holocene that women from a broad range of cultures intentionally hunt for subsistence. These results aim to shift the male-hunter female-gatherer paradigm to account for the significant role females have in hunting, thus dramatically shifting stereotypes of labor, as well as mobility.

Show threadRezvan HosainNov 8, 2023
@Daojoan This will kill Jordan Peterson
Show threadXenofact (he/him)Nov 8, 2023
@Daojoan history again reminds us grandmothers are the foundation of civilization.
Show threadSci-Fi GirlNov 9, 2023

@Daojoan

@luna 👆

Show threaddr jamesbicycleNov 10, 2023
@Daojoan
Suspect great diversity among ancient peoples. There's no monolithic ancient society. In Canada we see breadth of societies among the indigenous peoples, equality as core, throrough domination, with languages and cultures of peoples living adjacent being extremely different, like Chinese-English. Also noted is most societies have been gatherer-hunters more than hunter-gatherer. Hunter-gatherer is a macho gloss.