Mastodawn

Gerwinou Oct 13, 2023

bert hubert 🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦

The EU intends to add surveillance to end-to-end encrypted chats, including the use of AI powered scanners that should (generically) detect Child Sexual Abuse Material and grooming & report to Europol. Yesterday, I presented on this terrible proposal in a hearing of the Dutch parliament. Here is an English transcript of my very plain language explanation of how bad this all is: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/client-side-scanning-dutch-parliament/ /cc @echo_pbreyer

Transcript Dutch parliamentary hearing on EU Chat Control and Client Side Scanning - Bert Hubert's writings

On the 11th of October, Dutch parliament organized a hearing on the EU “Chatcontrol” proposal, with a focus on client side scanning. Dutch parliament had earlier passed two motions calling on the Dutch government not to support this proposal, but our government has declared it will ignore those motions. This hearing was timely because next week, or even this Friday, EU member states vote on how to proceed with this terrible proposal (Lawfare review from a US perspective).

Bert Hubert's writings

bert hubert 🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦Oct 12, 2023

@echo_pbreyer Useful US review: "CSAM and its closely related issue, child sexual abuse, are appalling problems very much in need of solutions. But the EU proposal is not the answer. “Do something” works only if there is value in the “something” and not unreasonably high costs in the “doing.” The EU proposal fails on both counts. It should be abandoned." - @lawfare https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/eus-proposal-csam-dangerous-misfire

The EU’s Proposal on CSAM Is a Dangerous Misfire

An EU proposal on combating child sexual abuse material online relies on technology not yet invented and, even worse, would create significant national security risks.

Default

Geogoeroe Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer Wow. Those were some powerful words. If our government still approves this regulation, they really can't hide behind good intentions anymore.

jon crowcroft Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert see also https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-shapeshifting-crypto-wars

The Shapeshifting Crypto Wars

Child sexual abuse and exploitation online is a serious issue. Targeting end-to-end encryption is not the solution.

Default

Jeroen Postma 🇪🇺Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer It's an absolute shitshow. What makes it even worse is that other factors that actually contribute to a healthy society in which such exploitation can effectively be combatted are systematically broken down.

Education (where teachers can play an important role in discovering abuse and providing help), mental healthcare, social cohesion, etc. Would all be so much more beneficial than breaking security and implementing crappy tech solutions.

1/2

Jeroen Postma 🇪🇺Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer Lots of techies discovered the hard way that you cannot solve deeply rooted societal issues by throwing more tech at it. However much we'd like to automate all the things.

The agenda being pushed is either backed by people lacking knowledge, or in a much more cynical take; By people who will benefit in terms of money and/or power.

Thanks for presenting a counter voice, it's incredibly important considering the damage this may cause.

2/2

bert hubert 🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦Oct 12, 2023

@jpostma @echo_pbreyer let's hope it helps.. thanks for the kind words!

Ryan - G8RKE Oct 15, 2023

@jpostma @bert_hubert

Unfortunately I think the issue is a lack of knowledge and understanding by those in charge and those who pressure politicians to protect children.

I've worked in tech support for over five years now and it's obvious that so many people lack a basic understanding of how to use technology let alone understand it.

Jeroen Postma 🇪🇺Oct 16, 2023

@2E0RKE @bert_hubert I'm with you on the lack of understanding on technology by the general population.

That being said, these are not just some concerned individuals who could be ignorant. We're talking about policymakers in positions that require a certain level of diligence.

They know. They have been consulted by experts and their actions show a coordinated effort to push this regardless.

BI has an article on what seems to be going on behind all this. https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the-eus-fight-over-scanning-for-child-sex-content/

‘Who Benefits?’ Inside the EU’s Fight over Scanning for Child Sex Content

An investigation uncovers a web of influence in the powerful coalition aligned behind the European Commission’s proposal to scan for child sexual abuse material online, a proposal leading experts say puts rights at risk and will introduce new vulnerabilities by undermining encryption.

Balkan Insight

Ryan - G8RKE Oct 16, 2023

@jpostma I disagree. There's a difference between knowing and fully comprehending something. If our politicians here in the UK are anything to go by, they know a lot but comprehend very little when it comes to technical matters.

Thank you for the link though I shall read it at some point today. Thanks too for the civilised discussion. Not something that was common on the bird site! @bert_hubert

Jeroen Postma 🇪🇺Oct 16, 2023

@2E0RKE @bert_hubert You're welcome, likewise! :)

Also, don't get me wrong, I don't expect them to maintain a deep understanding on every technological topic, that's why it's important that policy is backed by science and experts.

But given the circumstances and the way this is being handled, as described in the linked article and some more recent news regarding micro-targeting ads etc. it looks like there's more going on here.

Ryan - G8RKE Oct 16, 2023

@jpostma Having just read what you sent over I find myself agreeing with that assessment. Getting rich off of finding CSAM somehow feels wrong @bert_hubert

Eric Burger Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer Hubert, dank voor al je inspanningen! Ik ben bang dat de lobby te sterk is en dat er gemakkelijk gebruik wordt gemaakt van welwillende, goedgelovige VVDers in Kamer en Kabinet

chidi_anagonye Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer

Here we go again. Seriously, why don't they take 15 minutes, search the web for this exact thing, find the various comment sections, social media posts, etc, and save a ton of man hours by not even proposing it. Even if it passes, there is no practical way to implement it that doesn't flat out break the Internet. This horse has been beaten so much it is a puddle of goo.

SpaceLifeForm Oct 12, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer

Crazy stupid. It will never work.

teacher ciat Oct 13, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer an excellent speech on a very important topic. I agree with you on all counts, specially on the idea that "doing something" is worse than useless if the something is nothing good and the doing is harmful.

Thomas Fricke (he/him)Oct 13, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer

Thanks,Bert👍

Patrick Ben Koetter 🕺🏼Oct 13, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer https://balkaninsight.com/2023/09/25/who-benefits-inside-the-eus-fight-over-scanning-for-child-sex-content/

‘Who Benefits?’ Inside the EU’s Fight over Scanning for Child Sex Content

An investigation uncovers a web of influence in the powerful coalition aligned behind the European Commission’s proposal to scan for child sexual abuse material online, a proposal leading experts say puts rights at risk and will introduce new vulnerabilities by undermining encryption.

Balkan Insight

Alexander Hanff Oct 13, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer thanks for this

Dan Oct 13, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer this will have the same effect as the ridiculous helicopter parenting issue in the USA... Parents there are so scared to do perfectly reasonable and harmless things because they might be reported by a "concerned citizen" which even if proven completely innocent will probably result in months of unannounced CPS visits, loosing their job if it involves children or vulnerable people, and general suspicion that will cause problems for years to come

Riku Voipio Oct 14, 2023

@bert_hubert @echo_pbreyer Finnish parliament position is against the EU proposal in it's current form (news in Finnish, but Google translate / deepL do a good job) https://dawn.fi/uutiset/2023/10/14/eu-csam-suomi-eduskunta-kanta

Suomen kanta EU:n salauksen kieltävään ehdotukseen on kriittinen

Suomen eduskunnan Suuri valiokunta päätti Suomen kannan EU:n ns. CSAM-asetukseen, joka kieltäisi vahvan salauksen Euroopassa. Suomen kanta on kriittinen ehdotukseen ja käytännössä nykyistä ehdotusta ei hyväksytä.

AfterDawn

bert hubert 🇺🇦🇪🇺🇺🇦Oct 14, 2023

@suihkulokki @echo_pbreyer that is great news thanks!