Mastodawn

John Carlos Baez

NOTE: I quoted a report from an executive of DuckDuckGo attending the antitrust lawsuit against Google. This article has now been retracted from Wired:

"After careful review of the op-ed, "How Google Alters Search Queries to Get at Your Wallet," and relevant material provided to us following its publication, WIRED editorial leadership has determined that the story does not meet our editorial standards. It has been removed."

I hope we'll learn more about what Google actually does, since September 28, the court established a process allowing the Justice Department to publish more information about this case.

https://www.wired.com/story/google-antitrust-lawsuit-search-results/

A Note From WIRED Leadership

WIRED

Martin Escardo Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez

I moved to DuckDuckGo a while ago, not for ideological reasons, but simply because it gives me, more often, what I am looking for.

One day I complained loudly at home that I was searching for maths related things, but was getting adverts for socks, and my young son demonstrated to me that DuckDuckGo gave me what I wanted.

John Carlos Baez Oct 4, 2023

@MartinEscardo - At first I felt DuckDuckGo wasn't as good as Google. But since Google keeps getting worse I've switched to DuckDuckGo.

Bill Ricker Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo

At first, DDG was NOT as good as Google.
DDG has gotten less bad,
and Google has gotten worse.

I still miss AltaVista.
I got a hint of why it was so good so early (besides trusting its remote users with professional document-retrieval power) from <Computerphile>
"How Bzip2 Works (Burrows Wheeler Transform)"
https://youtu.be/GYbCttCF25A?si=rXo22ZcvQpBINt8m

How Bzip2 Works (Burrows Wheeler Transform) - Computerphile

YouTube

Jonathan Schofield Oct 5, 2023

@BRicker @johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo I had this thought a few days ago https://mastodon.social/@urlyman/111161873042582109

Bill Ricker Oct 5, 2023

@urlyman @johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo
Well, human-curated and AltaVista are radically different.
But more to the point, scaling without sponsorship of some sort is hard.
Maybe combining censor-proof distributed storage model with the Screensaver distributed processing model?

Tortipede Oct 5, 2023

@BRicker @johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo I used to like its proximity operator. I also miss the days when you could, for example, search for "Kosov@" (a deliberate compromise between Albanian & Serbian spellings) and have search engines just do what they were told to.

Bill Ricker Oct 5, 2023

@tortipede @johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo
Excellent examples of what we've lost.

James Wood Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo I've used DuckDuckGo for a while now, but I don't entirely trust it to stay good. I've seen adverts around for DuckDuckGo Browser, which strikes me as a land-grab rather than a worthwhile project (given that Firefox is already a perfectly acceptable browser, once you change the default search engine). It also promotes this weird conflation of browser and search engine that a lot of people seem to have picked up recently.

Daniel Schildt Oct 8, 2023

@mudri @johncarlosbaez @MartinEscardo Windows version of DuckDuckGo Browser is built on top of "Microsoft Edge WebView2" https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/webview2/ library. Essentially it is a somewhat minimalistic UI wrapper with ads filtering, but I don't quite understand why it's so slow (when compared to other browsers).

Microsoft Edge WebView2 | Microsoft Edge Developer

Apostolis Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez

For me google is better. I use duckduckgo too, but I have to switch to google on many ocassions.

I have the same experience with google, searching for a subject, and getting a similar subject which happens to be a product I can buy.

Tobin Baker Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez unpaywalled: https://archive.ph/6a8jE

Pete Oct 8, 2023

@tobinbaker @johncarlosbaez Tobin, thank you for this. Frightening enough on its own, but what,why,how did the Wired article get pulled? Yikes!

Tobin Baker Oct 8, 2023

@petep44 @johncarlosbaez It got pulled because apparently the interpretation of that slide was completely wrong. There's some detailed explanation in this Hacker News thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37802116.

Wired has removed "How Google alters search queries" story | Hacker News

Pete Oct 8, 2023

@tobinbaker @johncarlosbaez Thank you again, Tobin. I didn’t read the entire article so didn’t digest the interpretation. It was my first exposure to Google’s swapping search terms to optimize their revenue. I am so naïve, but slowly growing less so.

Pete Oct 8, 2023

@tobinbaker @johncarlosbaez Ah crap. Now I need to re-evaluate my thinking yet again. Is it up or is it down? Is it black or is it white? Is it yes or is it no? What’s that? I need to consider gray areas and nuance? Oooof! Thanks, regardless.

Reay Jespersen Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez
@FirewallDragons

Katiame Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez Yet another reason not to use google or chrome.

gjm Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez I'm not seeing anything anywhere in that article that says what evidence there is for its incendiary claims. The author mentions something that "momentarily flashed on a projector" and quotes the words "semantic matching", and ... so far as I can see, that's it?

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that Google is doing what the article alleges, or some other equally nefarious thing, but I'm having trouble thinking what could possibly (still less _plausibly_) have been on that slide, short and clear enough to be read when merely "momentarily flashed", that would justify the claims in the article.

Am I missing something here? Can anyone suggest what might actually have been on the slide? Or why the author of the article is so very vague about it?

James Britt Oct 5, 2023

@gjm @johncarlosbaez

That's my reading of this as well. It's conjecture.

Sentient Mortal Oct 5, 2023

@gjm @johncarlosbaez this. please critically read articles, people. this piece is slimy.

Water, water every where 🇺🇦Oct 4, 2023

@johncarlosbaez

I’d suspected something like this for a while, although my assumption was they were just manipulating the results to the point of uselessness rather than deliberately changing what I’d input.

Between these bad-faith manipulations, AI-model content theft and subsequent AI-generated data pollution the era of google as a “search engine” seems to be coming to a close.

#enshittification

Old Hippie Ⓥ Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez I switched to duckduckgo so long ago that I really don't recall Google search results very well. I wasn't thrilled with ddg early on but I put up with it hoping it would get better. It is a great engine now.

Rabbi Jill Zimmerman Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez damn.

James Britt Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez

Interesting conjecture.

Lstn2urmama 🇨🇦Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez ..it does more than that ..it tries to eliminate the words and things it does not want found or the people who were the leaders at certain times in history as well ..has been difficult to have real words found and the real meanings about them...terrible fiction...

ein kleines z Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez Google search is now deader than dead.

Harald R.Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez When I started with Google in 2002, switching from Yahoo amd Altavista, their results were to the point.

With each "improvement" the result quality deteriorated.

DDG is getting better.

Currently I use them in parallel, but probably I'll soon drop Google...

2xfo Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez
I googled an error from my Pixel phone and Google tried to explain what a new DAC can do for me. I put the error in quotes and it said that combination of words didn't exist on the Internet.

"allow tidal to access headphones adapter"

Greg Johnson Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez yes, the idiotic thing is that we know that the service has to post for itself with ads. So show us ads. But when the results are an ad not related to what you asked for, it’s infuriating. I had cases where I was searching scientific, religious, or historical things and the first 2-3 pages didn’t contain half my search terms. The kid of idiotic raise only an AI could dream up. Interestingly, only on mobile. Desktop is still sane.

Scott M. Stolz Oct 5, 2023

So that is why I can't find quality results anymore.

Justin Macleod Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez Thank goodness I use duckduckgo. Disappointing but unsurprising. I hope the damages are massive if it's found that Google did this.

Jeff Rivett Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez Has anyone seen any actual evidence of this supposed behaviour by Google search? My own (admittedly limited) testing doesn't show anything like this, and I'm unable to find any independent corroboration. The referenced article is an opinion piece, written by someone who spent years competing directly with Google search, about "a key exhibit momentarily flashed on a projector." Seems a bit shaky.

John Carlos Baez Oct 5, 2023

@jrivett - I think this is all we've got right now. That's why I said

"I hope we'll see more evidence proving or disproving this, since September 28, the court established a process allowing the Justice Department to publish more information about this case."

@johncarlosbaez

We need a Google post-process site or extension. It would take all the results of a google search, and then allow you to apply secondary criteria.

For instance, if per the example, I type "children's clothing", I get 415,000,000 results! What I want *is* probably in there, even if some brand is promoted to the top.

Estarriol, Terrorist Dragon Oct 5, 2023

@johncarlosbaez oh it is plain to see, search for Just Eat, and top result is always deliveroo....

Peter Havercan 💙Oct 7, 2023

@johncarlosbaez
After careful review of the op-ed, "How Google Alters Search Queries to Get at Your Wallet," and relevant material provided to us following its publication, WIRED editorial leadership has determined that the story does not meet our editorial standards. It has been removed.

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 7, 2023

@johncarlosbaez There was a Google antitrust decision in Germany a few days ago. Limiting abuse of power regarding data processing terms on using and combining personal data.

https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Entscheidung/EN/Entscheidungen/Missbrauchsaufsicht/2023/B7-70-21.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=2

John Carlos Baez Oct 7, 2023

@FrohlichMarcel - interesting, thanks! So this is German only, not EU?

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 7, 2023

@johncarlosbaez The enforcement was from the German antitrust institution, based on a mix of EU regulation and German antitrust law. I didn’t check all the details, yet. Basically Google offered to stop certain practices, but I need to read more closely for which scope (countries, jurisdictions) this applies.

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 7, 2023

@johncarlosbaez

Shomara 🦫Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez
The article has since been retracted (because of the baseless claims and speculations), so it’d be appropriate if you corrected the record too.

John Carlos Baez Oct 8, 2023

@Shomara - will do! Wireld doesn't say "baseless claims and speculations", just that the article doesn't meet their editorial standards.

Shomara 🦫Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez
Fair enough!

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez article has been retracted from Wired.

Dimitris Nakos, MSc Oct 8, 2023

@FrohlichMarcel This is despicable:
"Editor’s Note 10/6/2023: After careful review of the op-ed, "How Google Alters Search Queries to Get at Your Wallet," and relevant material provided to us following its publication, WIRED editorial leadership has determined that the story does not meet our editorial standards. It has been removed."
So what? We're going through the internet's version of McCarthyism??

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 8, 2023

@nakdim Hard to say. Unclear if the op-ed could substantiate those claims. Editors obviously decided against. Also unclear if the evidence was just too weak or whether this is risk minimization against potential litigation.

@johncarlosbaez well that updated bears reboosting

John Carlos Baez Oct 8, 2023

@PsyChuan - I reboosted it.

@johncarlosbaez oh i meant me, but fair

@johncarlosbaez Apparently Wired pulled the article, because they misunderstood what's happening from the slide, and ran a clickbait article on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37803519

> in reality, the slide is describing a fuzzy keyword matching system that takes a query of “Nikolia kidswear” and allows it to match ads with “children's clothing” keywords

For context, here is the slide from the trial that the article was referencing: ... | Hacker News

Benjohn Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez good of you to edit and correct!

Faris Osman Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez I have chosen to pay for a search engine (kagi) instead of using Google or any other free alternative. The ability to get decent summaries, blacklist urls from websites that require subscriptions and not seeing ads of any sort is priceless to me.

The quality of the results and the impact on productivity are 💯

Teixi Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez
After decade of algo updates detrimental to classic pagerank weights towards prioritization based upon personalized tracking guesses, resulting in —aside online business growth— degrading search results quality, extension, and consistency, etc. to most biggest & common userbase type groups with decades old of sustained growth.

Yet big question still remains:

Why nobody inside G seems to notice, to care, or minimally react?

ie:
https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/3344/2766

https://www.cs.ru.nl/bachelors-theses/2021/Roland_Leferink___4557972___Search_personalization_on_Google.nl.pdf

View of Personal Web searching in the age of semantic capitalism: Diagnosing the mechanisms of personalisation | First Monday

Water, water every where 🇺🇦Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez

I love that Mastodon allows for tracking corrections like this - thanks for taking the time to keep track and correct the record.

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez What Google actually does ... Here is an overview regarding ad markets.
It doesn’t require botching search queries.

https://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Srinivasan-FINAL-Why-Google-Dominates-Advertising-Markets.pdf

Marcel Fröhlich Oct 8, 2023

@johncarlosbaez The antitrust perspective is that there shouldn’t be a monopoly in this space. My opinion is that individual surveillance to generate detailed personal profiles as a basis to influence behaviour is a terrible idea in principle - detrimental to security and democracy.